OrigamiBoats Posts Archive Jan 2003 - 9 Apr 2003 This is a text file of Origami posts, designed for newcomers to Origami and those with limited internet bandwidth. To reduce the size of the file, posts have been trimmed wherever possible, and repeated posts removed. During the editing process, thread links have been lost. To pursue a specific thread or topic, you are recommended to perform a standard archive search, or examine the original post on the Origamiboats site. Colin Powell 1232 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Mon Jan 6, 2003 2:46pm Subject: Brent's Location? Hey has anyone heard from Brent lately? I wish he would write a book about his sailing adventures, I would love to hear about where he has been and what he has learned. Phil 1233 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Tue Jan 7, 2003 2:22pm Subject: Twin-Keeler News Letter I have noticed that there are a number of owners of twin-keel boats in this news group so I want to let those of you who may not already know that there is a good news letter dedicated to twin-keel boats. Other than being a twin-keeler I have no direct interest in this publication: Twin-Keeler 632 Brindidi Court Punta Gorda, FL 33950 USA Editor-Publisher Craig E. Anderson ceadma@a... $12 US per year in US and Canada Regards, Rich Murray Weymouth MA 1234 From: edward_stoneuk tedstone@g... Date: Wed Jan 8, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Plans Reading the deck measurements on my plans for a 36' I notice that the 2' 2 ¾" dimension where the straight side deck meets the curved side deck is more like 2' 5½" when measured against the other dimensions. Marking out using the 2' 2 ¾" gives a kink in the outer edge. Has anyone else noticed this or do I need new glasses? I would be interested to hear from builders how they cut out the side decks, from the plans or from patterns. Regards, Ted 1235 From: J & H Fuller Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 2:42pm Subject: 36' BRENT SWAIN for sale. I just came across this ad in the Vancouver Buy & Sell. The link will work tomorrow, it shows the ad with a photo. John Fuller. Campbell River. 36' BRENT SWAIN, steel hull w/bilge keels, pilot house, all heavy work done, perfect size for a family world cruiser, plans included, will consider trades. $22,000. Call Matthew Tel: 250-262-0034 1236 From: Paul Liebenberg Date: Thu Jan 9, 2003 3:25pm Subject: Re: 36' BRENT SWAIN for sale. Hey! thats my old boat! Sold it to Matt last year. Picture taken at my old trailer. Paul Liebenberg 1237 From: Mike Graham intiaboats@y... Date: Fri Jan 10, 2003 5:28am Subject: NEWS ALERT! SANTA CLAUS LIVES ON DENMAN ISLAND! I believe it was... oh way back in the olden days, in 1995, When, on a buying mission for some parts necessary to prepare my Cal 330 for sailing to the Philippines that, while in Popeye's Marine Store in North Vancouver, I came upon Brent Swain's book; " How to Build a Better Steel Boat, a Heretic's Guide". Now, I had longingly gazed at one of Brent's boats in that toy store called thunderbird marina, pushing my nose up against the cabinside windows(sorry about the snot), and clambering along it's decks(...and the footprints) yet, alas! It was not for me, it sold before I managed to save up enough allowance. (Having grown up with a father whom was a metallurgical engineer - but more importantly, an x-boilermaker out of the sheds of the VMD shipyards in Victoria - coupled with my own welder/fabricator experience in the steel industry, a steel-hulled boat to sail on is sailing perfected). Over the years I would think of that book - usually, while buried up to my butt in fibreglass mat, resin, & sawdust - but there was always something more pressing to buy. Well, the old Cal 330 is long since a pile of melted plastic and Popeye's never has the book in stock, but I recently received an e-mail from the North Pole(Denman Island), asking me if I would like a copy of Brent's other book, "Origami Metal Boatbuilding". With eager anticipation, I began my vigil of the mailbox, arriving at home after work(0600) and sitting on the front steps with my coffee and cigarette, waiting to pounce on the first mail-carrier that should unwittingly wander by (my Wife says that last part is kinky). Then, one day, the mail-carrier peeked carefully over the fence, stepped slowly through the gate, and, as he timidly reached into his bag, croaked in a small voice, "I have something for you". As I flew through the air, hands grabbing for the mailbag, my trusty border-collie at my side, I was reminiscent of a much younger me, "the christmas present destroyer". I cradled the envelope in my hands as I watched the mail-carrier sprint down the road, my faithful companion (dog, not wife) at his heels. Well, it has been a couple of days since I received the best christmas present that I have had in years and all I want to know is... Hey, Alex, did you get my cheque? Thanks to Santa Claus(Alex Christie) for making my New Year!(Oh, sure I'll probably be fired for dragging out my coffee breaks and my Wife wants to know why I am always in the bathroom for so long but to each piece of heaven there is a cost) I had better order the other book soon, I've already read through this one a few times. There is a sentence in this book that really is most appropriate and bears repeating: WARNING IF YOU LEND THIS BOOK, YOU WILL NEVER SEE IT AGAIN 1238 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sat Jan 11, 2003 6:47am Subject: Re: NEWS ALERT! SANTA CLAUS LIVES ON DENMAN ISLAND! Great post, Mike! I didn't know the book's arrival had such a powerful impact on you! I must admit when I first got the book I hid myself from my family for long periods in order to digest undisturbed the wonders contained within. I've never looked at the things quite the same since. Cheers, Alex Christie 1239 From: downdeep1968 down_deep1968@h... Date: Sun Jan 12, 2003 6:59pm Subject: boats and fuel decisions I need some help from those experienced people out there! I was talking with someone the other day and was very concerned with his choices for fuel. He is running a 4 cly diesel engine...no problem here. He has decided to use propane for his stove, fridge/freezer and a sorce of heat. It has been istalled properly above the deck in what are now benches to sit on, aft of the cockpit. Everything works and looks good. He has also added a small tank for gas in which to hold fuel for his new Honda generator. Is this not asking for trouble? I have not looked at it but I understand that each system has been installed properly with the correct venting, locations, check valves etc... Is ths a mixture whating to explode? 1240 From: Claude Poitras Date: Mon Jan 13, 2003 3:19am Subject: Brent's Book Hello everyone. I have Brent's book "How to build a better steel boat, a Heretic's guide". I am hearing of a second book "origami Metal Boatbuilding". Is it the same book with a new name? Claude Poitras 1241 From: fmichael graham Date: Mon Jan 13, 2003 5:49am Subject: Re: boats and fuel decisions My last sailboat had; 1) a gas engine, 2) a CNG stove, and a pressurized kerosene heater(force10). I never had a problem but, obviously, the more things that can be run off of the same fuel - preferably diesel - the better. The important concern is how safe are the storage & delivery systems in each case. I hope that the containment area for the propane is properly covered and that the storage area has sufficient overboard drainage in case of a liquid-leak and that it is well vented for fume dissipation. It has been my experience and understanding that most professionally installed systems are safe if one constantly cleans and maintains the complete systems in the required manner. I think that no system in a boat gets as much thought and attention by the owner as fuel storage/delivery systems. Having said this, the vast majority of boat fires would have been averted had the owner maintained the systems diligently. And some owners think teak is the biggest headache! Mike Graham 1242 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Mon Jan 13, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: Brent's Book Yes, they are both the same book, just different titles. Alex 1243 From: Shane p_eyre01@h... Date: Tue Jan 14, 2003 5:15am Subject: Origami boats on Woodenboat forum! Gidday Ive been a member here for awhile now albeit a silent one... There has been a discussion happening over at the woodenboat.com forum {here... http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 } So I have referred them to this board and included some photos from the files section {only a few to show the basic method!} I trust no one minds my doing this but I figured that it would be okay in the vein the question was asked and the response was offered that of understanding and learning. If ravencoast {couple of your pics were used which I viewed as the best at clarity of how the boats go together} or anyone objects please feel free to inform myself either here on the woodenboat forum or through my email. I would have asked first but unfortunately Ive been unable to get into the yahoo groups site since I gathered the information used... hence my doing so now! a matter of minutes after posting my first response on the woodenboat forum. Take it easy Shane 1244 From: Shane p_eyre01@h... Date: Tue Jan 14, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: Origami boats on Woodenboat forum! That link didnt seem to work so here it is again... http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi? ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=007402#000008 otherwise I guess copy and paste into a new window will bring up the page on the forum Take it easy Shane 1245 From: Shane p_eyre01@h... Date: Tue Jan 14, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: Origami boats on Woodenboat forum! Okay that definantly didnt work like I wanted so... go to http://www.woodenboat.com/ click on forum down the right hand side then click into the forum listing for "misc non-boat related" then find the post by Braam Berrub called "Non WOODENboat related - steel boat construction" Pity it took 3 posts to get that! will have to devise a better method of getting what I want to say said. Take it easy Shane 1246 From: Marco Ahrens Date: Tue Jan 14, 2003 3:56pm Subject: Material list Hi Folks! As I am new member of your group I have a few questions regarding material list for the 40' i picked up from the site. 1. The two 40'x8' plates required. Can these be made up of two 40'x5' strips welded together as 40'x8' plates are not available were I live. 2. Can plating sold in "reels" be used or does it have to be plate mill in order for the hull halfes to bend into shape. The idea with minimum frames is great in my opinion, especially after having spent all day welding rust on my old Mauritius 43. Thinking of building a new hull and use rigging engine etc from my old boat. Thanks in advance Marco Ahrens Cyprus 1247 From: Gord Schnell Date: Wed Jan 15, 2003 2:06am Subject: Re: Material list I would NOT use 5' plates to make up the 2 hull-halves. The welds will interfere with the forming of the natural, smooth simple and complex curves that make up the hull. I used 8' "roll" or "reel" material. The steel is reverse rolled to flatten the plates as they are removed from the roll. They came out very flat. The hull comes out very smooth and fair using this method. Gord 1248 From: Paul Liebenberg Date: Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:19am Subject: Re: Material list I think the idea is to have 2 identical flat patterns. any way you can achieve this would be acceptable. It will be tricky to get things welded flat, but it can be done. think though the whole procedure, this could be a big part of building the boat. Paul 1249 From: edward_stoneuk tedstone@g... Date: Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:23pm Subject: Re: Material list Marco, I could not get 40' x 8' (12m x 2.5m) sheet either so I welded together two 6m x 2.5m sheets. There is less welding and therefore less possibility of distortion. Even so the the welding must only be done in very short lengths and given time to cool or it will distort. Before welding chamfer the edges to be welded and fair the join using flat bar tacked across the join every 1' (310mm) or so. These fairing bars are removed after the join has been welded and the gaps welded. After I had formed a hull side into a shell I rolled it over using two chain hoists shackled to the barn stanchions, one pulling the other holding it back so that it did not roll too far. This allowed me to grind out the other side of the welds and finish the welding in a mostly downhand position. I think most plate of this thickness is decoiled off a roll or coil. Regards, Ted 1250 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:17am Subject: interesting link about steel boat sailor Here is an interesting link to a page about a sailor of a steel boat who is definitely living the code of voluntary simplicity! A Law Unto Himself By James Baldwin With an unlegislated spirit and nary a penny in his pocket, cruiser Kris Larson wanders the Indian Ocean doing battle with bureaucracy. http://www.yachtatom.com/ALawUntoHimself.html 1251 From: Larry Doyle ldoyle@t... Date: Sat Jan 18, 2003 4:03am Subject: Brent's book Anybody know the usual lead time for Brent's book? I ordered a copy about 3 weeks ago to be delivered to North Carolina. Larry Doyle 1252 From: Graeme Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:10am Subject: Darwin Hi All regarding that site where is has a bit to say about Darwin Australia. I lived there for 3 years and it is a nice place to visit and stay over in the best time of the year is June / July mid southern winter with good facilities for boaties, very suitable for twin keelers as there is very tidal movement place 8 tm so you can beach your dream for it can be maintained with out the costs of lifting. As for the renegades that live there it is the same in other parts of the world they are moving around all the time as transient ppl in the fishing industry , mining and such. The laid back life style is true it is in the N.T not today Tuesday or Thursday just a local joke and very friendly city. Regards Graeme 1253 From: Graeme Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:12am Subject: Plans of brents With the plans of brents do these include the cut outs for the folds or not for the 40x 8 hull sides. Regards Graeme 1254 From: Graeme Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 4:26am Subject: 3.7 mt sailing around the world When I was in Darwin last year there was a 65 year old Russian sailor on his way around the world in a 3.7 mt sail boat that was stopped over in Darwin it was barely enough room for him to lay down in the boat, he built the boat on the side of his house swung from the roof . When he left Darwin he was on is way to Christmas island then on back to Russia he carried 200 lt of fresh water and all his belongings in this small craft that he had built himself. I had some photos but the digital camera went flat and I lost them I will contact the N.T news and see if they can email me some that I could post in the room. Has any one else heard of him since about August 2002 when he left Darwin.??? Regards Graeme 1255 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 7:22am Subject: Re: 3.7 mt sailing around the world This guy's adventures sure make the idea of sailing a 36 foot Swain around the world look like extreme luxury in comparison. Still, it speaks to Brent's philosophy that the simpler your systems the more care-free your sailing. I've only been able to dig up these two links regarding the 65 year-old Russian sailor Evgeniv Gvozdev and his 13 ft boat: http://origin.island.lk/2002/11/10/news03.html Most recent news of him, I think. Details his near-demise in Somalia and subsequent welcome in Sri Lanka. http://content.mail.ru/arch/1139/156252.html Russian new report on the man (you have to scroll down to find the item) http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/sailing/08/03/russian.sailor.ppl/ CNN news item on him. Alex 1256 From: Phillip Allen Date: Sun Jan 19, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: 3.7 mt sailing around the world Thank you for a good read, Phillip (whos problems just got a little smaller) Alex & Kim Christie wrote:This guy's adventures sure make the idea of sailing a 36 foot Swain around the world look like extreme luxury in comparison. Still, it speaks to Brent's philosophy that the simpler your systems the more care-free your sailing. 1257 From: Graeme Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 11:27am Subject: plans Hi Alex do you know if the plans have the cut outs for hull the same as on the demo file that is on the site or do you have to work them out on a grap map ??? Regards Graeme 1258 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 1:05pm Subject: Re: plans Graeme, I have Brent's plans for the 31' boat. You don't lay it out using a grid. You are give measurements from the outside edges of the plate to various lines, and arcs. It is really very simple. Gary H. Lucas 1259 From: Graeme Date: Mon Jan 20, 2003 1:45pm Subject: PLANS Gary thanks for that I need simple Regards Graeme 1260 From: sharadsharma@s... Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:09pm Subject: Re: Brent's Book Hi Guy's the price fiven for the books is it im Us $ or Canadian $ thanking u in advance Sharad Sharma 1261 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Jan 22, 2003 4:26pm Subject: Re: Brent's Book Price Sharad, The price for the books is in US dollars for US and International addresses. Alex 1262 From: J & H Fuller Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:19am Subject: Re: Brent's Book Price So Alex that means it's in Cdn $ for Cdns, eh? Is it possible to pick up the book in person, as I'm going to be in Courtenay on Sat afternoon. You may want to reply to this offlist if you don't want to see 465 people suddenly becoming Canadians :o) John 1263 From: sharadsharma@s... Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: Brent's Book Price I am not canadian but my Currency is on par with the canadian dollar i wish u would charge the people from other countries in canadian dollars it pains us the same in paying Us $ o ye si cannot become acanadian as i Am from Aruba Regards Sharad Sharma 1264 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 5:14am Subject: Re: Brent's Book Price I imagine Brent has set his prices to defray the higher costs of shipping to US and overseas destinations. Anyone with further questions in this regard should direct them to Brent himself if possible. ...in case there is some confusion, please note that I do not have anything to do with Brent's plans and book sales, I just moderate the Origamiboats forum! Alex Christie 1265 From: Alex Christie achristie@t... Date: Thu Jan 23, 2003 9:36pm Subject: photo of steering linkage I've added an interesting photo of Silas Crosby's steering linkage over the aft-cabin. A great solution which still maintains the simplicity of the transom hung rudder. Alex 1266 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 2:00pm Subject: Alex Where di you post the steering gear pic? Thanks Phil 1267 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Fri Jan 24, 2003 2:18pm Subject: never mind Found it,Thanks 1268 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:12am Subject: origami boats in Boatbuilder magazine According to this magazine links page there are articles on building the origami way in Boatbuilder magazine. http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/jfh/personal_other/boats/FAQ/node54.html (use "find" to locate the "origami" reference) A search of the index on Boatbuilder Magazine's website (www.boatbuildermagazine.com) reveals that three issues have articles on what they call "shrink-wrap" steel boatbuilding, starting with May/June 1999. Anyone having these magazines on hand, could you have a look and see what they are all about, and if it applies to the origami boatbuilding methods? Cheers, Alex 1269 From: Alex Christie achristie@t... Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:35am Subject: New album added to photo section For your interest, a new photo album, entitled "36 foot MY ISLAND" has been added to the photos section of the site. Alex 1270 From: pvanderwaart pvanderw@o... Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 6:34pm Subject: Re: New album added to photo section That boat looks fabulous. Good photos of the bottom show the hull shape better than most too. - Peter 1271 From: Alex Christie achristie@t... Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Re: photo of steering linkage Because there is a jumble of confusing lines hiding the steering linkage in some places, I've added another photo to the Silas Crosby file which has a red-line overlay to show where the steering linkage is over the aft cabin. Alex 1272 From: robertgm36 robertgm77@e... Date: Sat Jan 25, 2003 11:53pm Subject: Head design Has anyone modified a head ala Brents design in his book ? Does it work okay ,any problems ? Robert 1273 From: Larry Doyle ldoyle@t... Date: Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:57pm Subject: Re: New album added to photo section Alex, Any chance of getting some more pictures of this boat? Inside and out. She's a very beautiful boat and a little different than the rest of the boats built to Brent's design. Larry 1274 From: aklove2u WIJNANDA69@H... Date: Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:07pm Subject: RUDDER DIMENSIONS I would address this question to Brent if he were anywhere near affordable internet use, but as I sure he is not any help is appreciated. The plans for the rudder call for an 8'9" rudder when we (Brent and I) cut the rudder out It was from an 8' plate giving the leading edge an 8' length I don't recall him saying anything about adding the remaining inches nor does his book or plans say anything about it. The 8' length brings the rudderhead over the top of the transom to what appears to be a nice height for the tiller to be. Is this (8') an o.k length? Second from looking at the plans the leading edge of the rudder has a cutaway section at the top from the side view it appears to be about 18' long but from the front shot of the leading edge it appears to be about 28-30 inches. What is the correct layout for this spot? Greg 1275 From: downdeep1968 down_deep1968@h... Date: Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:56pm Subject: twin keels and rudders? Was doing some reading out there and found some information on twin keels using twin rudders. I was wondering if anyone out there has ever seen, tried to incorperate this idea? I found that this was tried back in about 1920 with Lord Riverdale who build several boats from 25 to 48 feet with twin keels and twin rudders. His reason for twin rudders was that when healed one keel runs deeper in the water and having a rudder on each keel gives better steering of the vessel. Has anyone tried this? Know of any info etc? 1276 From: Jim Phillips Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: twin keels and rudders? The Around Alone boats have single keels and twin rudders. The windward rudder is often out of the water, hence the need for the leeward rudder which is conveniently in the water. They are angles slightly outwards to ensure that the leeward rudder is closer to vertical. Cheers, Jim. 1277 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: twin keels and rudders? I recall that these Around Alone monohulls have very wide beams, so when the hull is heeled and a centreline rudder would come clear of the water. There definitely needs to be twin rudders in order to remain in control. On a narrower conventional cruising monohull like the Swain hull, the centreline remains in the water (unless you were being pitch-poled, of course!), so the single rudder show be fine. The effect of twin rudders in this instance wouldn't do much more than create additional drag through increased wetted surface. Phil Bolger has experimented with putting endplates on rudders to give more bite when a vessel is heeled, although again I don't know if this has ever been something considered for Swain's boats. Alex 1278 From: John Jones Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:45am Subject: Re: twin keels and rudders? So would both rudders turn at the same time? 1279 From: Alex Christie achristie@t... Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:51am Subject: VW Rabbit engine installation I've posted some more photos to the MY ISLAND 36 footer album, these showing the owner's installation of a VW Rabbit diesel, plus one of the vessel freshly afloat. The engine looks like a nice clean set- up. Does anyone have experience with these types of diesels? Speak up and tell us what you know! Alex 1280 From: downdeep1968 down_deep1968@h... Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:49am Subject: Re: twin keels and rudders? I got to see the boat again today and it looks like aft of the keels he has a horizontal bar extending from the bottom of the keel back level to the stern of the boat to what would be dual skegs?!. Mounted behind this brace are both the rudders with what looks like same angle as the keels. He has both rudder stocks mounted to the transom and hydraulic steering attached. I figured that they would be better put to use behind the keels? 1281 From: sagedsrt Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:04pm Subject: Re: VW Rabbit engine installation Some limited info: VW diesels were and still are used by several different automakers as their diesel powerplant. (Land Rover, Volvo, etc.) I had a mid 80's Volvo diesel station wagon with a VW built engine, albeit a I6 cyl vs. the Rabbit I4. (The I6 uses 1 1/2 I4 kits for rebuild) The car ran great and I saw better then 30mpg for this tank, but it was very hard to start. I pulled the head to check the head gasket and valves, and noticed that there were cracks in the head between the valve seats. A local (and very knowledgable bunch of guys) VW parts place said this is common and a "given" on VW diesel engines of this era. This crack is not a death knell, as the engine will run and this shop assured it would re-occur if the head is replaced. I gave up on the car (rings shot) so I can't attest to this, but I would imagine it would eventually cause problems. I would suggest periodically pulling the head and checking. A side note I got from an experienced Mercedes diesel mechnic during my investigaton of this engine: Never let a diesel sit for long periods of time without running up to temperature. (I can see this in a sailboat) The piston rings will collapse and cannot be resealed without pulling the pistons. He assured me he has seen mechnically perfect engines that had low or no compression even after oiling the cylinders, penetrating oil in the cylinders, etc. 1282 From: John Jones Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:29pm Subject: Re: VW Rabbit engine installation Head gaskets seem to blow at regular intervals too, it's about a $200 job as the "non re-usable stretch head bolts cost $10.00 each and the gasket costs $100.. The job is a simple do it yourself. My old VW 4 cyl model gave great milage ($45.00 for fuel Toronto to Key Largo) I'd drive for eight hours straight non-stop and use up $12 in fuel, the tank was'nt empty but ohh my kidneys...yikes.I think it was a 10 imp. gallon tank. I gave it up when the car rusted off the engine and then sold the engine. 1283 From: edward_stoneuk tedstone@g... Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:24pm Subject: Re: RUDDER DIMENSIONS Greg, I recently started cutting out the rudder and noticed that it is longer than an 8' sheet. I used 8' side of the sheet as the trailing edge of the rudder to give me a little bit more length. I haven't worked out what to do with the top yet. I guess that the cutaway on the leading edge is so the it can be lifted onto the locating eyes without fouling and so needs to be long enough for the pintles to clear the eyes. Regards, Ted 1284 From: aklove2u WIJNANDA69@H... Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:16pm Subject: Rudder Ted A look at the pictures available on this site show that it appears to be open to interpretation as the boat under the title Shair has what appears to be the full 8'9" rudder whereas most other photos the rudderhead just seems to clear the transom, As my boat is twin keeled I will be raising it a little higher on the skeg for being on the beach and will gain a few inches at the head that way. I guess the height that your really shooting for is where you would like your tiller when your standing in the cockpit. My leading edge is exactly 8'2" which when raised off the bottom of the skeg a few inches gives me a nice tiller height in the cockpit. I didnt bang the pipe to a point as per Brents book, as I plan to weld the bottom plate to the pipe bang it in place then weld it to the bottom of the rudder to stiffen the whole unit as it may end up on a rock someday. I used a peice of 1/2" scrap that was wedge shaped a banged it in there until the pipe fit. I don't know how much this is needed as the bottom plate is fairly small and should therefore be quite strong but... A look at Winstons' Dove 4 shows that he didn't even cut out a notch in the leading edge. As he has built a few of these boats all of which have been well sailed I'm sure it is not necessary and I would have done the same just for simplicity were it not for the fact that mine was already cut out. What I can't tell by the photo is if this edge is tapered to a point like the bottom edge of the rudder or if it is squared off like per the plans. Good luck Greg 1285 repeatd post 1286 From: put_to_sea amos.bechtel@o... Date: Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:55pm Subject: Prop location on My Island I noticed the location of the prop on "My Island". The propshaft exits the back of the keel rather than being placed in the skeg. Does anyone have any information on advantages to this location? I would think it would improve rudder authority under sail. 1287 From: Gord Schnell Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 4:14am Subject: Re: VW Rabbit engine installation I'm using a 1.6L Jetta turbo diesel in my 40'. Pathfinder Yachts of California used them for years. Saw one running in Squamish. So smooth you couldn't tell it was running. We'll see. Gord 1288 From: pvanderwaart pvanderw@o... Date: Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:43pm Subject: Re: twin keels and rudders? > Phil Bolger has experimented with putting endplates on rudders > to give more bite when a vessel is heeled, although again > I don't know if this has ever been something considered for > Swain's boats. This is just a quibble, but the end plate effect does not have to do with being heeled. The idea is that if the rudder has a long bottom edge (think of the "barn door" rudder on a Cape Cod catboat) then water tends to circulate from the high pressure side under the bottom to the low pressure side. The end plate reduces this flow and makes the rudder more effective. If the rudder is fairly high aspect ratio, i.e. has only a short bottom edge, then the end plate is unnecessary. To put it another way, the end plate only makes sense if the rudder needs to be shallow. A lot of boats with twin rudders have some sort of expensive arrangement to lift the windward rudder out of the water. And there is a boat here is Stamford named Snow Goose that has a rudder than can be swiveled to the vertical position on either way the boat is heeled. All this is unnecessary on a non-racing, cruising monohull of ordinary proportion. Very un-Swain-like, I should think. Peter 1289 From: robertgm36 robertgm77@e... Date: Sun Feb 2, 2003 5:31am Subject: prop location My 36 twin keel has the prop located in front of the skeg same as My Island . I did not build this boat but it works well and seems to make sense on a twin keel. Would be interested in others with this design. Still would like feedback on the head design in Brents book. Robert 1290 From: russa1111 russa@s... Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: VW Rabbit engine installation Hi all, Just popped in to see how things are going and had to answer this. I am running the only piece of my boat that I actually acquired. I bought a 1984 Jetta Diesel car for Cdn$1500 with the idea of playing with it, getting to know diesels and marinising it before I built the boat and so I had an engine ready to install. Well, the boat never got built but I was so impressed with the engine that I kept the car. I use it every day to work (30kms) and it has 306,000kms on it, doesn't burn any oil between changes and does 50 mpg or 5.6 ltrs/100kms. Russ 1291 From: Jon Richards Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 1:51pm Subject: PLY DECK AND CABIN TOP ?? Hello All When l began my boatbuilding adventure l looked at all the study plans l could possibly find, l came across a designer here in Australia by the name of Alan Payne he designed a series of steel blue water yachts over many years, his book of plans state that in his opinion the best form of construction was steel hull with ply deck and cabintop having a complete fibreglass/epoxy covering. l can see the many advantages of this idea but have not found a boat constructed this way, l wondered if any members of this group have ?? would this be a good match for an origami hull. l ended up building a multichine Van de Stadt 37 in aluminium which l enjoy very much, however l think the origami boat looks a better and easier boat to build. l wish l had found out about these boats before l started mine !! Jon Perth W.A. 1292 From: jalborey jalborey@y... Date: Mon Feb 3, 2003 8:25pm Subject: Re: PLY DECK AND CABIN TOP ?? Jon, To compromise the stiffness and strength of a steel hull with a much weaker material for a deck doesn't seem to me (and to much more knowledgeable people than me) a good idea at all. Besides, there is the problem of joining two materials with completly different physical properties, which react in very different ways to changes in moisture and heat. I do like Payne designs (allthough I much prefer Swain's), but I don't think he is right about this particular recommendation. Regards, Jesús 1293 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Re: VW Rabbit engine installation - 'marineizing' Alex, I searched a bid on the WEB for info but I haven't found very much. There is a company in the UK, that specializes in 'marineizing' (they use s instead of z) small car/truck diesel engines: http://www.lancingmarine.com/ They are very responsive to requests for info. I agree that it would be very nice if anyone in this group who has experience in 'marineizing' such engines would share it with us. Rich Murray North Weymouth MA 1294 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 5:29pm Subject: VW rabbit engine Found the following after doing a search for marinizing VW on google: http://www.geocities.com/seawindtwo.geo/kbase/equipment/engine/engine- gen/engine-gen.html Date: Tue Oct 2, 2001 12:02 pm A small but excellent company in Canada called Pathfinder makes marine diesel engines. The smallest is a 55 HP, 4 cylinder unit which uses the block of the VW rabbit engine, German made diesels do have a good reputation. Parts are readily available, the technical manuals superb and assistance from the company tops. We have used the engine now for over 14 years and find it excellent. Fuel consumption is 6/10ths of a gallon at full cruise rpm (6 to 7 knots) which is a smooth 2700 revs. A replacement engine goes for about 2500 US. VW Parts are available world wide, important if leaving the US. Parts can be found in junk yards world wide because the same engine is in the VW rabbit and you don't have to pay marine prices.. So, if anyone is thinking of repowering...... 1295 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 7:36pm Subject: Path Finder & Marinzing http://www.geocities.com/seawindtwo.geo/kbase/equipment/engine/engine- gen/engine-gen.html Here is the conatct info for Path Finder Marine John Scherer. President (Actually located in Kirkland QC) Pathfinder Marine Inc. P.O. Box 1284, Champlain, NY 12919 (514) 695-6676 FAX (514) 695-1080 E-MAIL pathfndr@p... John says that his engine costs 11,900 US. But it would seem that with the availability of VW diesel engines for less than $2,500. US that this should be accomplished for much less. The following passage was copied from the above url. Please go there for additional information. Date: Thu Nov 15, 2001 5:01 pm The marinizing project is not one of such technical difficulty if in fact the parts to convert a specific engine are readily available. Generally the areas for conversion are (1) the cooling system requires a heat exchanger to replace the radiator, mountings for raw water pumps, some hose routings and other existing taps blocked or rerouted (2) the engine mounting system is the custom brackets and mounts that are very different from the automotive originals, (3) the exhaust system which requires some attention to protection of the cylinder head from seawater incursion, back pressure preservation and adaptation to a generally larger diameter to include the efficient expulsion of combined exhaust and raw water, (4) the adaptation of the marine gear that requires a special, splined plate with breakaway protection, a specially designed flywheel, a bell hosing to adapt the gear mounting to existing, correspondent bores for the automotive transmission on the block face. Depending upon the specifications of any particular engine, other modifications to head gaskets, valve materials, injection pump timing, oil pump and pan changes to accommodate steeper inclined mountings can increase the scope of the project measurably. Often the actual space requirements and availability, for serviceability, of radical repowering conversions becomes quite an important issue as well. Don has enjoyed quite a successful relationship with his own conversion as well as one with a parts distributor who in all likeyhood stocks all or most of the bolt on bits required to marinize a specific, 55 HP VW engine. If the "kit" is available, most of the bolt on stuff can be done in a weekend. This is almost certainly not the case if the Toyota or a Volvo diesel were chosen for the conversion as these have never been common or commercially available as marinized diesel engines for small boats. In the case of these choices it is probable that most of the conversion parts would have to be custom fabricated at what I presume to be a significantly higher price. Add to that a very predictable increase in labor hours to design the systems, cut templates and attempt to stay within prudent engineering specifications. 1296 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 8:36pm Subject: VW diesel engine prices Wow, $11,900 US is over budget for me, especially considering it is a conversion of an automotive engine. For that price in Canadian dollars I could install a new Isuzu 4 cylinder diesel including gear. However, getting back to VW engines, there is an automotive wrecker (Malahat Auto Parts) on Vancouver Island where I had once priced out a VW diesel engine at only $500. This was a few years ago, so the price may be several hundred higher now. This is still a fairly good bargain for an engine. Brent's system of using the skeg for cooling means no need to buy a heat exhanger, since no raw seawater is involved in the cooling circuit. This could represent some savings in cost. I do have some concerns that the VW diesel is a light-duty engine that is not designed for sustained hard work that boat use may require. Does anyone think this is an issue? I am an engine neophyte, but I thought there is something to do with the stroke and bore which equates torque at certain rpm. The VW engine may develop horsepower, but does it have equivalent torque at the same rpm as a true marine or industrial engine like Isuzu? Any mechanical types out there who can educate us on this? Alex 1297 From: Michael Casling Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 8:55pm Subject: Re: VW diesel engine prices I have been hesitant to join this discussion because I did not have anything nice to say. My memory tells me that when they first put the Pathfinder diesel in boats they had problems. The motor is not an industrial strength diesel like the Yanmar, however it may run smoother than a Yanmar. That is the price you pay for the HD motor. A boat motor only has one gear available so a motor that does not have good low end power is going to suffer. You can put on a shallower prop and rev the motor higher but having an engine that requires more than 3000 revs seems a bit silly in a sailboat. You could use an automatic gearbox in your boat and shift gears, this has been done. If I was going to use a diesel I would get an industrial strength model, used and rebuilt if neccessary. I have a 2QM15 Yanmar ( since 1979 ) and just installed new rings, rod bearings and had the valves ground. It is a bit of a pounder as in not the smoothest but with the kind of service it provides I have no complaints. There are used Yanmars, Volvos, Perkins etc available. Replaceable wet sleeves should be a basic requirement in my opinion, that way you can rebuild it forever. My motor will probably run for another 20 years and still be easy to rebuild at that time. Michael Casling in Kelowna BC 1298 From: john blanky Date: Tue Feb 4, 2003 10:17pm Subject: Re: VW diesel engine prices Hi Alex, Most modern auto engines with poor to adequate maintenance will last beyond 20Ok (my sister had a kcar last a million) which if you conservatively said that it was all at 100kpm thats an average of 2000-10000 hours. I would argue that a prairie winter is severe operating environment well different than a marine environment. My gut says that a auto engine will probably serve quite well. The VW engines are some what under built compared to industrial engines, and are designed to run at a somewhat higher rpm. I was looking for used VW rabbits a couple years ago and the average mileage was 300k and most had more. From this evidence, I would use auto engines. After the initial install if you stayed with the same engine I'd guess you could throw the engine away and replace for less than the equivalent cost of the purchase price and maintenance of the industrial engine. That would be based on used autoengines and my own rebuilds/ maintenance. N. 1299 From: richytill tillrc@h... Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 1:35am Subject: Re: VW diesel engine prices Alex, a VW mechanic put me on to the Rabbit diesel. I was thinking about a 3 cyl Isuzu but as this this would cut roughly $10,000 out of the budget, it seemed wise to consider options. The mechanic here is an instructor at our metal shop program and when, in another life, he worked at a VW dealership, he was called to service several VW diesels on boats. All of these motors were working well after several years of use. He points out that used motors can be obtained for $500--$2000. I picked up a clean one for $1000 Can. With the skeg cooling system there is no need for a complex heat exchanger, valve, pump, strainer, pulley, belt arrangement. Apparently, the secret is to run these things at somewhat below volumetric efficiency and have a bomb proof cooling system. The cylinder head can go when the cooling system is not doing it's job. Most importantly though, this is an engine with a long production run. World-wide, there are many of them to glean parts from; or pick up whole engines. Parts are available. Hopefully it will be all hooked up and ready to test in a few weeks. rt 1300 From: John Jones Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 4:46am Subject: Re: VW diesel engine prices Oh feces Why not go for the Cat-a-perk.... that's a Cat engine with a perkins block.... we bought a Cat gen-set that had a plaque that reads "block By Perkins" ... It's a very good power plant. John Deere is very good too. 1301 From: T.H. & V.D. Cain Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 4:45am Subject: VW diesels --- "marinising" --- components. Hi all, To add to the VW thread, the following may be of interest: In Europe (late '70s), there were two prominent VW Golf / Rabbit / Jetta off-the-shelf conversions available. One of these was a Dutch job --- I think they called it VW Bootmotor and this was based on the slant mounted 1498cc engine. This unit used the usual cast aluminium exhaust manifold / seawater cooled (shell and tube) heat exchanger in place of the original and an external oil cooler for the engine oil. The latter was found to be necessary since there was no airflow over the sump and this engine had only 3.8 litres of crankcase oil. The transmission was Hurth --- the very reliable servo-clutched HBW series. The other was from the UK and was sold by Hawker-Siddeley / Lister - Petter. Their original unit was called the "Petter Four" and this engine, also the 1498cc slant-mount VW unit, was fitted with a Bowman manifold and a Jabsco belt driven seawater pump (mounted badly, cover removal meant pump removal first!). No oil cooler was supplied with this motor. The transmission was Hurth as above. In the early eighties, another VW unit was released as a Hawker-Siddeley Pirhana P4. This unit was based on the 1588cc unit - vertically arranged -- and was rated: 43bhp @ 4000 rpm for pleasure craft and 35 bhp @ 3000rpm for (continuous) commercial use. This latter British Standard rating implies flywheel output without standard accessories (alternator and seawater pump). The heat exchanger/manifold was/is a Bowman VW150 (still available - at least it was last year on Bowman's web site). This model still had the Jabsco 6490/132 belt driven seawater pump and it was still a pain to change impellors. However, for anyone using this engine, Jabsco has a much better solution in a crankshaft mounted model with direct access to the impellor and better piping arrangement, model no 29440-1001. The transmission was any of the Hurth HBW 150 series, including V drive. For my unit the max reduction available in the in-line gearbox was 2.87 and 2.50 (A and B) directions and you can use either if the prop handing is sorted. These ratios translate to a 500mm dia. prop (mine is a Max Prop and pitch can be adjusted out of the water) The alternator was a 65 amp Bosch. The engine was fitted with a Serck ? oil cooler which was interposed between the original oil filter adaptor plate and the actual filter - needed a smaller (un-desireably so ) oil filter if the engine bearer clearance was to be sensible. On this latter point, I was hunting an oil filter adaptor plate to enable remote mounting of the cooler and filter ( so I could get back up to standard VW filter size) and VW told me that they are developing a true marine diesel (small) right now. If anyone knows of a readily available remote filter adaptor set for this engine, I'd be grateful to hear about it. It is interesting to compare the Pathfinder (USA conversion) of the same era with UK versions. The big rosy-coloured ads showed a black cat atop the engine --- purring - naturally! " This baby eats bubbles " it said - referring to the vane pump in the first stage of the Bosch R type injector pump, and its ability to purge the air from the fuel system without extensive bleeding. Weight was also a big selling point in those days when comparable power plants weighed in at 300+ kg and the VW was less than187 kg all up with transmission. The Pathfinder claimed in excess of 50hp but the ads did not say if this was gross, or net at the shaft. There is no doubt that a 1588cc VW diesel can run up to 5400 rpm and output 52 bhp, but getting that down in RPM and into a sensible diameter prop would be the challenge. A clean 40 ft sailing hull needs about 30 bhp into a sensible sized prop to drive them at hull speed in moderate waves and no wind, and a hard working diesel will last a lot longer than an oversized unit. Perhaps therein lies the clue to the VW Golf / Rabbit long life in the auto - it has to work fairly hard given its output. Not too much risk of glazing the bores because of low load. Keep the BMEP up I say! As I recall, Pathfinder had a much more sensible layout for the seawater pump and a high mounted alternator. My unit still has nil hours (preserved internally) so I cannot comment about the service life, but judging by the reluctance of the VW Golf car owners to part with their engines (as spares for me!), I have no doubt they are a sound proposition. Plenty of photos of the engine and installation in the boat if anyone wants them. I also have all of the associated workshop manuals, engine and gearbox. Terry 1302 From: John Jones Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 5:01am Subject: Re: VW diesel engine prices Ask your local Transport Canada Ship Safety Office or Yer "Local Coast Guard" and quite possibly they could supply the formulae Butt the VW engine is very reliable. 1303 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:22am Subject: automotive diesels reconsidered Thanks for all the postings about the marinis(z)ing of diesels. It seems reasonable to conclude that the problems with any engine configuration really lay in the way it is installed, and not in a given engine. In other words, any unit can be properly engineered, given the right parts and know-how. If not done right, the weak link will eventually wreak havoc right when you need the engine the most (in the middle of a narrow passage in a strong current, or on a lee shore, when the engine would be stressed the most). The VW in my boat was never installed properly -- really just cobbled together by the former owner who was looking for a cheap and quick fix, so does not represent a true conversion. I'm going to have to research this type option more. If the parts for conversion are cheap enough and the engineering is sound, it may be a very good proposition, and highly in keeping with a hallowed Swain tradition of doing things yourself without great cost. My first vehicle was a Datsun/Nissan diesel truck and it was the ONLY vehicle I've ever had among many since that never let me down in the engine department despite severe use (even in minus 40 degress Celsius temperatures) and many many kilometres on the odometer. I don't know if success in vehicular use means success in marine use, but it sounds like even a properly converted Nissan diesel would be another contender. I've just had a look online and discovered a conversion company in Finland called Piikkion Venevarustaja which offers conversion kits for over 45 different engines. One kit is called "Sea-Toy" http://www.saunalahti.fi/~seppniem/seatoy_eng.html , for converting a Toyota diesel, and looks pretty comprehensive. Some of the components might not be needed if you were using Brent's skeg-cooling method, so the kit would be slight less than the 1557 Euros price they list. They manufacture bellhousing kits for the Ford 2.3 L diesel, VW Golf, TDI, Passat, Nissan, Mercedes, Peugot, Fiat, etc, to give an idea. My last thought on the subject: Marinising an engine is a great form of education. It strikes me that putting in the work to do your own conversion really would really familiarize you with all the attached systems (pumps, etc) attached to your basic engine. Having this kind of education about your engine would really be handy when you are offshore and having to maintain and repair (or even jury-rig) the engine when no other help is at hand. Alex 1304 From: Mike Graham intiaboats@y... Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:35am Subject: Re: Auto diesels converted to marine use. Just a thought... While living in the Philippines in the early 1990's, I assisted in the building of a 70' fishing "banca". As the owner, I also experienced that period of time between when you think your almost finished and when you finally are(that has to be the worst part of building a boat). Leading the way - in this time of utter frustration - was the problem of propulsion. A proper marine diesel engine w/trans would have doubled the value of the boat. Then you have to add steering, throttle/gear controls, cooling, fuel delivery, & charging/starting systems. I went the "native way", purchasing a used isuzu diesel and having the standard transmission converted to a two speed fwd./one reverse deal(hard to find an auto trans in Asia). As function was the concern, the system was not pretty. A steering column from a car, a foot clutch for the trans, a converted window winder for a throttle, and a gear shift mounted at the helm console - connected to the trans by a six foot long shaft(imagine the throw) - was the final system for taming the isuzu. Long story short; (a) engine alignment/bedding is the most important, most unforgiving part of the job, (b) raw water cooling is cheapest/easiest but corrosion attacks at an amazing rate. Fresh water(keel cooled) is worth the effort, (c) If an auto engine can power a 70' fishboat(loaded with gear, crew, tuna, ice & brine) I see no concern for it to power a 40' steel-hulled sailboat. The fishboat began work in 1992 and is still fishing with the same engine, albeit for the muslim separatist gang whom stole it from me. Remember that with whatever engine you choose to use, the "damn thing" will be the part of the boat that you like the least and sweat over the most. So, don't bother wasting money on expensive marine systems(unless you don't mind wasting money). Your building a sailboat. If you feel the need for an engine, put in the smallest, cheapest "stink-pot" you can. You will, most probably, only use it for mooring purposes and a Yuloh(long chinese oar) can serve that purpose(for the purist). I have found that I have spent most of my "mechanical-maniac moments" on fuel delivery and battery systems. The VW engine will serve the purpose just fine if what you want to do is build a boat to go sailing. For those of you whom are familiar with the B.C. south inter-coastal way, I have sailed my previous 30' sailboat through Porlier Pass(what a rush!), Active Pass(nice whirlpool!) and under the Lion's Gate bridge at 3Nm ebb(it took a VERY long time!) without an engine - not smart, but necessary at the time. 1305 From: T.H. & V.D. Cain Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 1:35pm Subject: VW 1500 and 1600 diesels. A few additional specs. for these engines when marinised: *(Oz spelling too!) Minimum idling speed: 1200 rpm Maximum revs.: 5300 - no load, 4500 on load. Maximum torque: 7.786 kgm (57.1 lb ft) @ 4000 rpm Cold start limit temperature: - 22 deg. C. Temperature Ring normal temp 95 (max permissible 120 ) deg. C. Thermostat starts to open: 80 deg. C. (engine uses heat exchanger bypass - recirculating up to this point) Thermostat fully open: 92 deg. C. The back of the head and the pump inlet are fitted with heater connection spigots for hot water take off. Maximum permissible exhaust back pressure: 80mm Hg. Or 1.5 psi Maximum angle for installation (crankshaft line) is 15 deg. Total angle with bow lift ( ref. power craft) not more than 22 deg. Maximum angle of heel + or - 29 deg. Weight of complete unit with lube oil: 176 kg (386 lbs). Single lever control cable loading (shift arm): 15 kg. Fuel consumption estimated @ 4000 rpm 43 bhp : 12.6 l/hr (2.7 Imp gph ---3.33 US gph ) Sump capacity with level engine: 3.5 litres HBW 150 gearbox oil capacity (ATF / Dexron 2 or 3) : 0.56 litre --- not very much! HBW 150 range is unlikely to need the optional heat sinking external bolt-on casing cooler with the VW engine, A shaft brake is not usually needed for HBW boxes as they are rated to be selected in the opposite direction at quite high speed, not a nice thing to do, and so they have an internal preset torque and shock limiting characteristic in their multi-disc servo clutches. Usually enough to hold the average prop when sailing without turning the engine if the ratio is 2:1, or more or you can let them freewheel in neutral if that's what you want --- also not a smart thing to do unless you want to generate electrical power as you sail. They also can accept largish thrust loads on the output flange - angular contact rear bearing. Must use approved coolant with anti-freeze at not less than 40% conc. --- inhibitors must suit aluminium heads. Two thicknesses of head gasket available (if one ever has to lift it) and this is critical since the piston protrusion above the block must be measured to pick the right one to use. If you don't use the right one, one of two things will happen 1. Too thin and the pistons will hit the head which is flat --- that is why this measurement is called "bump clearance"!!! 2. Too thick and you won't have 23:1 compression ratio anymore and this will castrate the engine power and make it quite hard to start. The synthetic timing belt is one of the early cogged-type belts and must be changed at the equivalent of 100 000 km , which I suppose is about 1200 hours? Best to err on the safe side or that tinkle-tinkle sound of the valves hitting pistons will hurt the wallet. Valve clearances are adjusted by shims in buckets under the single OHC --- apparently they rarely need adjusting under 160 000 km., but should be checked at say 500 hour intervals to be sure. Fuel pump calibration for the prop. law load curve is rarely implemented, and the standard Bosch calibration for auto use is OK. The Bosch injector pump will lift fuel up to a point, but a positive head from an elevated day tank is a lot safer way to go. However, do not run the return+spill fuel line back to this day tank if the tank is not big enough and located so that it is able to cool by radiation. Never run the return line back to a tee just ahead of the primary fuel filter or the engine cannot self-bleed, this return line must go to a free surface of fuel in a tank for the elimination of bubbles as well as some heat loss in hot situations. Many years ago in a SE Queensland (Aust.) coastal race, a competitor in a trimaran towed a monohull deep-keeled competitor off a sandbank and out to safety through the rough surf conditions. The trimaran was fitted with a 1488 cc VW diesel. Enough of this VW stuff. Terry 1306 From: Phil S. Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 3:13pm Subject: Engines for Sail Boats Hey Gang: Well I have been reading the VW engine discussion with some interest. I am wondering why? I picked up my latest Boats and Harbors paper and in the first few pages are ads for new diesel engines. The Allen Machine Company has a new Yanmar #3TNF74C-EDN for $1900 Dollars. They are rated 23hp Cont and 28hp Max. It comes complete with a #5 bell housing. A few pages later they also advertise a marine gear rated for up to 32hp, one is manual for $499usd and Hydraulic for $995usd. There are lots of other engines advertised through out the publication. I can’t imagine a need for anything larger as and auxiliary in a sailboat. I think everyone should get this newspaper. There are also a couple of unfinished Roberts projects advertised along with a more than a few trawlers. There are more than a few lever chain hoists for what look to be very reasonable prices. My inclination is always to buy a tool rather than rent it. More times than not I spend more on rentals than I would if I just bought the darn thing (with the exception of excavating equipment). Hope I helped Phil 1307 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 8:17pm Subject: Re: Engines for Sail Boats - Yanmar - 3TNE74C-EDN Thanks very much Phil, I believe that you are referring to a member of their industrial diesel family. The model number is actually 3TNE74C-EDN. This is the basic industrial engine that would need to be marinized. The price is excellent! The Yanmar master distributor, MackBoring, said that it was about $1,000. less than the normal one-off price; however, he did point out that it is a project to get it working properly in a sailboat. For anyone who is interested, there is a new Kubota engine on ebay for $1,200. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=3309311217&category=26226 and another that came off a Japanese rice harvester for $500. :(. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=2402451178&category=6745 Would you please provide contact infor fo rthe Allen Machine Company. Regards, R 1308 From: prairiemaidca bforster@i... Date: Wed Feb 5, 2003 11:07pm Subject: More engines!! Hi All: Lot's of great info on engines. I'm just starting my cockpit installation so I'm not quite to that stage yet, but I'm on the lookout for power. One engine source that I'm looking at is a used diesel from a Refer system on a transport trailer. Our multitemp refers also are equiped with a very powerful generator as well as the compressor. It would need to have the throttle system changed and a way of addapting a transmission. Any thoughts? Also how about a list of things to be considered when adapting a diesel (non marine version) into a sail boat ??? Martin (Prairie Maid)... 1309 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: More engines!! I almost tried the used Reefer or refer unit (auxiliary engine from a refrigerator truck) route with my liveaboard, and was able to get a Perkins 4-108 for $500 Cdn. The compression was there at first, and it seemed to run okay on its own, so I thought it would be great. Here is where my cautionary tale begins: It turned out to have an odd bell housing and the wrong flywheel to mate to a Borg-Warner gear in the hull, as well as no engine controls at all, since these were of course left in the truck it came from. I began to research the parts for conversion, but at that time (about 6 years ago), it was Detroit-Allison Diesel out of Vancouver who had the rights to distribute Perkins parts, and there I hit a snag. I tried to call them and they were extremely unhelpful, like they couldn't really give a damn -- a very stramge attitude I thought at the time. I just couldn't figure out why they were so reticent about the subject, and of note they never once called me back - it was always me calling them to find out why they didn't call me back evenwhen the said they would. Did they want to sell me these parts or not?? After putting me off for many months, they finally told me they couldn't get the parts. They were the sole source of parts for Perkins at the time, so my conversion process was halted right there. Stumped, and stuck with a $500 engine I couldn't use. I thought something was odd about the situation, and sure enough a few years later I heard through the grapevine that Perkins UK was quite upset with Detroit Diesel for taking on distributorship yet offering no parts support for their engines. In other words, they just wanted to sell the stuff to industry, but took no interest in service and support -- especially not interested in some boat nut tracking down a certain flywheel plus various and sundry bits to get his old wooden boat moving. When Perkins pressed the issue, Detroit got in a huff and took it out on them by being as unhelpful as possible until their contract ran out. This stuff happens in industry - we just don't hear about it in normal civilian life. It must have been very damaging for Perkins in North America -- it certainly queered me on their product, not because Perkins engine are bad (they are popular in the UK), but simply because there would be no technical support, and even getting basics maintenance items would have been like pulling teeth from those slow loruses in Vancouver. As we all know, buying the engine is just the beginning of a long relationship with dealers and parts suppliers. Someone else handles Perkins now, but I had long ago sold the engine (luckily) to someone else who was willing to do a lot of custom machinework to make it work (they had the skills I wish I had and were happy with it). I did the math and realized that a rebuilt Isuzu from Klassen diesel (about $5500 Cdn) would have been a better route, and would save me loads of time running around chasing elusive critical parts that may or may not have even existed on the North American continent. This was pre-internet era for me. I might have been able to source things better had I been tangled in the World Wide Web as I am now, or I may have been able to get the skinny on the politics of that particular engine dealer long before buying the engine itself. I would say that before you buy a refer unit, do these two things: 1) Ensure adequate compression of the cylinders , but beware that compression can be high without a load, then suddenly drop when the engine is made to work hard in your boat, and blow all its pressure right by the worn-out rings. Perhaps this is oily nature of diesel at work, seeming to seal the rings under no load, then revealing the true nature of your pistons when you really try to use the thing. It would be a horrible pitfall to encounter after you've spent thousands converting, plus at least a thousand installing the thing, only to end up hauling it out for a complete rebuild. 2) Ensure adequate dealer support for both your conversion and subsequent maintenance parts. Obviously if the engine core is identical to one used already for marine use, you'll do much better. I don't mean to be down on the refer units or scare you off them-- they might be a good deal; just keep your eyes open and approach it with as much science as possible. Alex 1310 From: prairiemaidca bforster@i... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 1:48am Subject: engines So many things to consider. the possiblility of a rebuilt looks interesting. As we will be headed to Van. Isl. this Sat. we may have to do some exploring if time allows. The refer engine that I was looking into is an isuzu. Tough little units. The abuse they take in our cold winters is amazing. We will be cruising the docks in search of Swains to video again this trip, does anyone have any locations where we can find some. We have costa vida, shinola and a number of others but are always looking for more. The pictures come in very handy out here on the frozen prairie when you are trying to picture something off of the plans. thanks Martin (prairie maid) 1311 From: robertgm36 robertgm77@e... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 3:26am Subject: engines Guess its my turn to comment on this subject.Totally agree that if you don`t know what Boats& Harbors is you will be glad you found out. In a nutshell ,huge source of industrial , fishing gear not yachty hence not stupid prices.One company - www.adelmans.com sells perkins motors new and used . Parts for perkins are available everywhere and these motors are in boats every part of the world I`ve been to . Having said that I recently picked up a used 50hp Isuzu for US$325.00 . While those deals are not common if you look in enough places and talk to enough people things happen. Marinizing diesel motors has been done as long as fishermen have put motors in boats. It is no mystery although a dealer who would rather sell you a motor might want you to think that . Talk to fishermen if there are any left in your area They often have good leads. Happy hunting. Robert 1312 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:10am Subject: For really inexpensive and maybe cheap marinized diesel For really inexpensive and maybe cheap marinized diesel check out this site... http://chinadiesel.com/mrn/Index.htm R 1313 From: edward_stoneuk tedstone@g... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:52am Subject: Engine story Here's my engine story: I bought a Daihatsu CLMD 25 engine that was taken out of a lifeboat from a wrecked freighter. It came with the propeller and shaft, throttle and gear lever and controls, control panel, anchor and chain, searchlight, steering wheel and cable its original toolbox and a variety of fittings. I paid £850 for it, about US $1,400. I reckoned that although it was 12 years old it would not have had much use. I found out the name of the agent who quoted, among other things ¥8094 for the fuel filter element plus handling charges. This worked out at about £45 or US$74! So I thought, well, the engine is probably based on a land based unit and eventually tracked it down to the CL10 1 litre 3 cylinder engine that was in the Daihatsu Charade. I got hold of a workshop manual for it and a fuel filter and some other spares considerably cheaper from auto sources. The engine started well but smoked a bit when the throttle was blipped. This would happen anyway as the fuel injected is increased before the engine can speed up to burn it, but I thought I would have the injectors and compression tested. The diesel engineer recommended replacing the injectors and that the compression was down a bit. He advised that this might be because the engine had not been used regularly recently but that it might improve with use. I thought that, although in general I believe in letting sleeping cogs lie, I would take the head off to have a look before I installed it. A friend, who was a Caterpillar apprentice in a previous life gave a hand and was impressed by the lack of wear in the engine which he said had only between 10 and 100 hours use. The problem was corrosion in the front cylinder caused by condensation sitting around the rings when the piston was resting at its low point for considerable periods. I had that cylinder bored and sleeved and new rings put in. We changed the timing belts and one of the tensioning pulleys, cleaned off the corrosion powder on the aluminium block inside the timing belt case and painted it. One of the teeth on the fibre gear driving the balancing shaft had broken off and the rest were cracked probably by the aluminium corrosion powder building up between them. We replaced this gear. Only a few of the gaskets in the automotive gasket set I bought fitted. The head gasket was 1.4 mm thick instead of 1.3 mm and the rocker cover, sump and rear seal bearing journal gaskets didn't fit. The engine goes well now and is a neat little unit and in due course I will install it in the boat. As I will be using skeg cooling I will probably take off the heat exchanger and use the inbuilt water pump instead of the belt driven salt water pump that it came with. The CLMD 25 is a third of the weight of the SABB 22 hp engine I had originally fancied. I do prefer the feel and noise of a big slow revving engine, especially a two cylinder but the weight and size and cost of spares and remote controls put me off. We went to see a secondhand one it started easily, sounded lovely, but I could turn it over on compression by hand using the flywheel. In general all diesels are reliable and long lasting given clean fuel, air and oil, efficient cooling and provided that they are driven hard enough to stop the bores glazing up. Ted 1314 From: Phil S. Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 2:09pm Subject: Allen Machine company Hi: Allen Machine Company is on the web at www.allenmachineco.com but their site doesn't have much on it. They do run 3 or 4 pages worth of ads in B&H's. Adelmans.com is also in B&H's about once a month. They have great prices on new perkins engines and tons of running pull outs, How about a 4-71 for $1800? Neither have the same stuff on their web sites as they advertise in B&H. I guess you would have to contact them. Adelmans' even has winches for $250-$500usd. I may drive down and see what they look like but if I can buy a hydraulic winch, that would fit on the bow, for $500, I won't bother making one. Like I said everyone that is serious about building a boat should subscribe to boats and harbors, http://www.boats-and-harbors.com/ it is only $21 a year for 3 isues a month. I enjoy the heck out of reading it and day dreaming about converting some tug or fishing boat to a liveabord. Unfortunately none of them would fit into my criteria for a 4'6" draft. I also couldn't afford to buy the fuel for them, LOL. There is always a huge selection of "shippy" boat gear that would be perfect for what we want to build. Well I hope I helped. Thanks Phil 1315 From: rbyzitter2001 slacktide@s... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:07pm Subject: Engines. Hello, Speaking of engines, I have a 3 cyl. "marinized" 3LB1 Isuzu. I have been saving it but as I am no closer to a hull than I was last year, I will sell this one. It has 800hrs on it since new. A key start panel on a 12' harness, tach, hour meter, oil pressure and water temp gauges. It has a SAE #5/7.5 flywheel and housing which is a standard back end to adapt to a marine transmission. It is rated at 25hp/3000 rpm. I have a picture file on my desktop and have created a folder in the files section but for the life of me can not figure out how to place my photos into that file. Cheers. 1316 From: rbyzitter2001 slacktide@s... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 4:36pm Subject: Engines. In regards to the Japanese rice harvester, Kubota diesel possibly. It will not have an actuall fresh water pump as it is convection cooled. 1317 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:53pm Subject: New file uploaded to origamiboats Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Marine 3LB1/DSCF0010.JPG Uploaded by : rbyzitter2001 Description : 1318 From: rbyzitter2001 slacktide@s... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 8:56pm Subject: Engines. OK, I figured it out. the photos are in files/MArine 3LB. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/Marine%203LB1/ Cheers. 1319 From: prairiemaidca bforster@i... Date: Thu Feb 6, 2003 10:30pm Subject: looking for Swains Betty and I will be leaving the Edmonton area this Sat.am and will be at Cobble Hill Sat. night. We will also at sometime that week make it as far as Campbell river. We have an invite and phone # for Silas Crossby. I have some still photos of the exterior of Moon Raven and I'm always looking for others. What price range do rebuilts from Klasssen's fall into? I saw one(New) at the boat show a few years ago, and it was quite expensive.. (Prairie Maid) is the 36ft. Model... Martin... 1320 From: T.H. & V.D. Cain Date: Fri Feb 7, 2003 5:39am Subject: Last gasp on VW diesels. It was late and I was tired, so there are the excuses and the error corrections follow: VW Golf original engine size: 1471cc not 1498 VW Golf original engine 1471cc power: 37 kW / 50bhp @ 5000 rpm. - Max torque 82 Nm / 56.5 lbs ft @ 3000 rpm VW Golf original engine 1471cc max. rpm 5500 to 5600 rpm VW Golf original engine 1471cc compression ratio 23.5 to 1 VW Golf original engine 1471cc idling speed 770 to 870 rpm (Bosch pump) VW Golf and Jetta engine 1588cc power: 40 Kw / 54 bhp @ 4800 rpm - Max torque 100 Nm / 73.8 lbs ft @ 2300 rpm VW Golf and Jetta engine 1588cc compression ratio 23 to 1. VW Golf and Jetta engine 1588cc idling speed: 920 to 970 if fuel pump is Bosch marked 068 130 107J , all others 800 to 850 The Hawker-siddeley Pirhana manual has mixed the specs from the Petter 4 (1471 cc) and the Pirhana (1588 cc) and I was looking at their manual when typing the original note - the above figures come from the engine workshop manuals and make more sense if one is not half asleep. Sorry for the earlier errors. Terry 1321 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 1:51am Subject: sails and rig for sale Dear Group, I've come across a complete set of rigging, including 3 sails, which might be a good fit for a 36 footer, from Al Maxwell, from the Vancouver area, and thought I'd pass it along to anyone who may be interested. Here is the information in his own words: -Alex I am selling the rigging for the 36 foot trimaran whose name used to be Lightwaves. She was a Vagabond II, built in 1977 from marine ply and fibreglass. Included in the rigging is a 45 foot wooden mast in excellent condition, with self-furling (I think) forestay, a backstay, an aluminum boom and shrouds. Included in the sale are a genoa and a main sail in very good condition, orginal equipment, full battening on the main, and a storm sail (never used). The rigging includes the turnbuckles. All wire is swaged heavy duty SS. I am asking $2500 for the lot, will not currently sell in pieces. The boat was destroyed at Sea-Tec Marine at Shelter Island Marina over the season's holiday. I took from it the parts I needed for a reconstruction project involving the sloop in my backyard. Lightwaves had been suffering from inattention for a year, and had developed mould and water damage due to a below waterline hole in the port pontoon and water leakage through the bow in the main compartment. I salvaged and have sold other bits and pieces, still have a couple of large winches. From the sloop I am reconstructing, I have a 4 cylinder Palmer marine gas engine for sale. A SS tank is available for sale, although its looking like I might want to put it back in for the diesel I've now been plumbing in to the sloop. Its running well, good compression in all cylinders. Funny old transmission attached. I'd say this motor is original with the sloop, which is 40 years old. Easy to work gas engine. Advertised at $1100 in various places, will take less. This weekend one could see much of what I have for sale. The mast unfortunately can be viewed only on weekdays for now, since it is in lockup on a commercial site to which I have no access, but the rest can be seen at my home in White Rock and at the farm in Ladner. Please call if you are a serious buyer only. (604)538-6296 1322 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: sails and rig for sale I forgot to add, Al Maxwell can be reached via e-mail at amaxwell@d... 1323 From: Richard Till Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 8:07pm Subject: Re: sails and rig for sale Alex, I checked this mast; it's 38' not 45'. The base has signs of de-lamination. The sails may work for a 31' ? rt 1324 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:22pm Subject: Re: sails and rig for sale Thanks for checking the mast out Richard -- did you happen to see the sails and were they any good? The owner thought it might have roller furling too? Alex 1325 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:00pm Subject: Tug Plans In Brent's book he mentions a friend of his that built a tug boat using the origami building method. I know Brent is out on the water but would a plans of that boat be available? Thanks Phil 1326 From: Richard Till Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:55pm Subject: Re: sails and rig for sale Alex, sails would be too small for 36 footer I think--but didn't see them. could be OK for 31'. rt 1327 From: jonhackett44 jonhackett@h... Date: Tue Feb 11, 2003 10:53pm Subject: Ready to start the hull... Hey gang, After a few fits and starts, I've ordered the steel and have a spot to build my 36' bilgekeeler. I'm starting on my hull next weekend and I'll be posting pics as she comes together. A few questions for you welders out there... I have a Miller 251 and I intend to use it for most of my weld up. I've been told by the steel crew at Western Towboat that 70XXseries wire is the way to go. Thoughts? Also, their opinion is that the backstep method will go a long way toward eliminating a lot of distortion. You guys agree? Are there critical seams to be aware of? Any experienced help would be great! Thanks, Jon 1328 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 0:52am Subject: Re: Tug Plans Phil, I'll e-mail Evan Shaler and ask him if he knows about the tug. Brent would probably encourage you to take the design of a tug hull you like the look of that has the performance characteristics you seek and play around with card paper to flesh out a similar shape. He has always said that if you can make it fit with the card paper, it should go together in steel too. Alex 1329 From: johnkupris@a... Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 5:37am Subject: what is card paper? I'm probably the only person who does not know! John 1330 From: Paul Faulkner Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:26pm Subject: Re: Ready to start the hull... I am in the process of the final weld-up of a 29', semi-displacement, power boat. The hull plating is 10 ga, the chine bars are 1/2" round, and the keel/stem is 3/8" flat bar. I am using transverse and longitudinal frames. All of my welding has been done with .035 and .045 Lincoln wire in the 70XX series. Wonderful wire. 99% of the inside welding is done. I have been careful to move around quite a bit while welding and only welding 3" at a time. Nevertheless, I do have one area of distortion. It's very small and one of those things that a builder frets about, but nobody else is likely to notice. It occurred at the chine in an area where there was more of a gap between the plate and chine bar than there probably should have been. My attempt to fill the gap with weld metal rather than a piece of metal probably caused the distortion. Butt seams are another area where I encountered some unexpected problems. They contracted longitudinally more than I thought they would. This distorted the longs a bit (pulled them into a minor s-shape), but the plating still appears fair enough. This is my first steel boat and I'm not a professional welder. If I had it to do over, I'd be more careful about gaps at butts and at the chine. If I had done that, I probably could have eliminated the very small amount of distortion that I do have. Nevertheless, I'm very happy with my results so far. Check out the Metal Boat Society's web site. They have tons of information, knowledgable moderators and a lot of experienced people that participate in the forum. The site is very well-organized and many of the topics listed have several thoughtful replies in their thread, so it's best to look around and see if you can find what you want/need before just posting an open question. Hope this helps. Good luck! Paul 1331 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: what is card paper? Regarding card paper, I was refering to any thick paper that is stiff enough to make models out of, but easy to trim with a sharp knife or scissors. "Bristol board" is another word for a very thick stiff paper. Corrugated cardboard (as from boxes) may behave oddly when bent certain ways, so I'd avoid it, but not all cardboard is alike. Basically anything that mimics the behaviour of sheet steel would work fine (acts the same when bent in any direction). Alex 1332 From: Goodnatured Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:10pm Subject: RE: Ready to Start the Hull Paul, What is the name/source of the design for your hull? Doug 1333 From: Paul Faulkner Date: Wed Feb 12, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Re: RE: Ready to Start the Hull It's called the Coastal Cruiser. See http://www.boatdesigns.com/. I made an additional transverse frame and stretched it to 29'. I also alterred the gunwhales so that the sides do not turn in at the top. 1334 From: johnkupris@a... Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:00am Subject: Re: what is card paper? Thank you very much the explination, it was worth persuing as I have made patterns of parts with everything but card paper. John Kupris 1335 From: John Jones Date: Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:36pm Subject: Re: what is card paper? Hey ...all I use is file folders, they keep things on a smaller scale... less waste. 1336 From: Richard Murray gaspereaux@y... Date: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Re: Boats and Harbors Thanks very much for the information on Boats and Harbors. I received my first edition yesterday and your right - its packed with products new, used, some useful and others just entertaining to read about. I am sure that it will prove to be a great source for my nautical needs. Because of the 36 editions per year and my random access filng system, my wife made me promise to take them to work on receipt. It has already proven to be quite popular there also. Regrads, Rich 1337 From: philipsparr ttsparr@c... Date: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:46pm Subject: Questions: Building Hello Everyone, This is my first posting on this group site. I have been reading through the old messages and have bought and read through Brent's book. I have a few questions for anyone who has built one of his designs: The origami method seems like a user friendly building tecnique and most people who have posted on this site seem to have had good results. I'd be interested, however, to hear about any serious problems anyone has had while building, what the cause was, and how it was fixed. What concerns me is the matching of the long welded seems in the hull; has anyone had trouble with distortion keeping the seems from coming together properly? Is this just not a problem? I'm also curious about the building plans; from Brent's book it looks like some parts are custom fit to the boat, the cabin sides for example, while others are taken off patterns from the building plans. Are patterns given for the foredeck and side decks?,the hull would then be pulled in to fit these, or is the hull pulled in to the specified beam and the decks fitted to it? From the book it sounds like the first method, but I'm not sure. If it is the first way has anyone had trouble with the hull fitting the side deck? I appreciate any responses to these questions. Philip Sparr 1338 From: philipsparr ttsparr@c... Date: Tue Feb 18, 2003 0:12am Subject: Questions: Sailing characteristics Hello again, I've only seen a few mentions of the sailing characteristics of these boats in the old messages, I'd like to hear more comments about their pros and cons. Are the boats stiff or initially tender untill they get heeled over a bit? I have an alberg 30 so am wondering how they might compare. How close on the wind can the boats sail? 40 deg., 50deg.? What sail combination works the best for heaving-to on these boats? How does the boat lay while hove-to? Do these designs have excessive weather helm or are they well balanced? I've seen comments about their good directional stability but would like to hear any other testimonials. Does anyone think the boats are over or under powered? I appreciate responses to any of my questions, thanks. Philip Sparr 1339 From: jeff outz jgoutz@y... Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:19am Subject: building times and prices hi, i was wondering how long it would take to build a 26-30 footer, and what the projected costs would be. i have several friends in the sheetmetal business, so that would help me out, but would it be cheaper to build in wood, or fiberglass. any thoughts would be helpful, thx 1340 repeated post 1341 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 0:35am Subject: Re: building times and prices Go to Bruce Roberts site and take a look at one of his kits. Look at the hundreds of beautifully laser cut pieces that go in to making a hull a deck. Think about the thousands of welds needed to put all those pieces together. Then consider the fact that the hull and deck are the EASY part, its fitting all the rest of the stuff that takes all the time. Consider that wood or fiberglass would take even longer and require much greater skill. Before you despair though, go to the pictures on the Yahoo origami page and print out the sequence of pictures of the guy building a Brent Swain hull in a field with sophisticated equipment like a cutting torch, a couple of come-a-longs and a few very important logs. Marvel at the simplicity of what he is doing, and how quickly he gets it done. Do not forget though, a boat, any boat, is a HUGE project. I have talked to people that have taken 7 to 10 years to complete their boat, even one of Brents. Anything that takes more than a few months often gets interrupted by little unimportant things, like family, work, life, the usual distractions. On the other hand some of the Brent Swain boats have been completed and were in the water sailing after just a few months. If I were a betting man I'd bet against you EVER completing most of the boat designs out there. I'd also bet that the junkyards would give me good odds on winning that bet too. I'd say Brent's major accomplishment is in getting more people into the win column than almost any other boat designer. Gary H. Lucas 1342 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Origami Troller Yacht? Hi Gang, I just posted a picture of a French Strongall frameless Yacht. I don't see why Brent's style of building couldn't be used to build something similar. Apparently there are two different styles of top sides for this hull. I personally like the smaller aft wheel house version. These designs come with two 50hp BMW diesels. Supposedly it runs at 7 knots using less than a gallon an hour. I have been working on a plan in Vectorworks on my lunch hour so when it is done I will post it and see what the group thinks. Thanks Phil 1343 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:44pm Subject: Re: Origami Troller Yacht? Phil, What name are the photos posted under? I couldn't find them. Gary H. Lucas 1344 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: Origami Troller Yacht? I posted them in the Files section in a folder named Origami TrollerYacht. thanks phil 1345 From: jalborey jalborey@y... Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:15pm Subject: Re: Origami Troller Yacht? Phil, Where did you post the picture? Thanks, Jesús 1346 From: Phil S. newbarndesign@y... Date: Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:46pm Subject: Pictures Here they are; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/OrigamiTrolleryacht/ I really like this design. Looks like it's only downfall is the small rudders and twin engines. I like the layout, and like the concept. It looks like it could be used in the canals of France and still be a comfortable Ocean crosser. Now I need to figure out how to build one. Thanks phil 1347 From: timothyennuinet timothy@e... Date: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Re: building times and prices --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "Gary H. Lucas" wrote: > Before you despair though, go to the pictures on the Yahoo origami page and print out the sequence of pictures of the guy building a Brent Swain hull in a field with sophisticated equipment like a cutting torch, a couple of come-a-longs and a few very important logs. Marvel at the simplicity of what he is doing, and how quickly he gets it done. This is the thing, the real ticket. With the Origami design, it is all about simplicity in design, construction and execution. And I really don't think there is ANY other hull form which can be tossed up with so few man hours. Except maybe a plywood Dory based hull, which I would think would be about 10% longer. But the Origami hull is an order of Magnitude less time than almost all other hulls to complete. > Do not forget though, a boat, any boat, is a HUGE project. I have talked to people that have taken 7 to 10 years to complete their boat, even one of Brents. Anything that takes more than a few months often gets interrupted by little unimportant things, like family, work, life, the usual distractions. Aye. Any long term project filled with hours of labor and this happens often. Really, you have to be a bit obsessed to even contemplate the thing, and a LOT obsessed to finish it quickly. You HAVE to be willing to put the boat as your #1 (yes NUMBER ONE) priority in life while it is being built, otherwise it will take many years to build, and then you will lose steam and interest, and.. well you and I both have seen those 1/2 completed boats out there. Don't even think about building a medium sized or larger boat unless you have spousal support.. yes that means she is sawing, welding and working next to you at least part of the time. Or perhaps she is sewing and painting. Whatever her proclivities, she had better be involved, otherwise the boat becomes 'competition' for your time, and not a joint, life orientated project. When that happens, you start getting 'Honey Dos' out the yin yang, and start getting yelled at for spending so much time on 'That Damned Boat(tm)'. >On the other hand some of the Brent Swain boats have been > completed and were in the water sailing after just a few months. Nice! bet these were under 30 feet though ;) >If I were a betting man I'd bet against you EVER completing most of the boat designs out there. I'd also bet that the junkyards would give me good odds on winning that bet too. Yes yes and yep. I've got a Fin that says yer right ;) >I'd say Brent's major accomplishment is in getting > more people into the win column than almost any other boat designer. I think this may be an overstatement.. I mean, look at Phil Bolger and George Buehler. I think Brent's designs are definitely in the top 10 of this list though, for certain. Ok all of this being said, to try to answer the fellow's question that he originally posed, there is no real estimate that we can make for the total cost of building your boat. It is true that it will be cheaper to build in origami steel than almost all other methods, so you can at least use that as a guide. The cost difference of various boats usually, though, lies more in their fitting out than the hull costs. In other words, if you go simple and small, it will cost you much less than if you go complex and small. You can spend $30,000, or you can spend $250,000.. on the same boat. It's all about what you want in terms of xtras and how you equip the boat. Why, I could spend $50,000 just on navigation and radar. Or I could spend $1000. Both will get me there, but I just won't have fancy color displays with the cheaper one. If I buy a used diesel at a swap meet, or a shiny new one.. if I use regular plywood or Mahagony.. if I cover the sole in Teak and Holly, or white pine. All of these choices will affect how much you spend on your boat. My advice? Buy Brent's book. If you like the concepts, pick a design and send away to Brent for a study plan and material list. Its a small investment in time and money that might save you years of pain later. --T PS: At the end of the day this is YOUR project. You have to decide what YOU want to do and what you are happy with. If that means you want to be in a fancy, reverse curve wineglass hull, then that's what you should do. But just make sure you understand what you are getting into!!! 1348 From: prairiemaidca bforster@i... Date: Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:54pm Subject: Building time and costs Hi All: I would definitly concur, there is really no set limits on how little or much time and or money one could use up on a project of this size. My own experience so far has been one of many ups and downs. Even though I knew that it would take a long time to see any real tangible results it still gets you down some days when you go out to the boat shed and see just how slow the work goes. People stop by and are amazed by the sheer size of what is being built but like anything else, when you are working around it for along time you loose that perspective. I guess the bottom line is, if you think of it as anything but a labour of love then you will probably fail if you are doing it as a long term project. Right now it's -20 outside and lots of snow on the ground so insted of spending this sat. morning finishing the cockpit installation I'll just have to shovel snow. That's just how it is for those on the prairie who don't have a heated shop to build in. I'm sure everyone who ever undertakes one of these types of jobs no matter where, will come up against there own particular set of problems to deal with.. Enjoy the work when you can and the rest will take care of it's self. As for a familly that is supportive, I don't think you would want to tackle a project this big without their approval and hopefully their help... All the best to those who try.. Martin and Betty (Prairie Maid) P.S. How about a list on the site of all the boats and builders who did succeed, and actually put a boat in the water?? There must be getting to be quite a few by now....M. 1349 From: downdeep1968 down_deep1968@h... Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 0:01am Subject: Re: Building time and costs I believe that if you read Brent's book you would find that he says he has put together a boat in as little as a week. I am sure that there were not alot of creature comforts installed but this brings up the question of what do you have & what do you need or want. I have been planning on building my own boat for several years now. Since I first started sailing many years I could just not understand why someone would want to spend huge dollars on a boat and be unhappy that it's not exactly what you wanted. You can spent as little or as much as you want to on your boat. The question is what do you need? The wife and I spent hours looking at plans on-line, looking at plans that friends had and walking all the docks in every marina to look at and discuss what we saw and liked and disliked. It came to a quick conclusion that the only way we were going to get what we wanted was to build it. This brings up many questions that you must ask before even ordering the plans. 1) Can I do this? Do you have this skills to perform all the welding, wood working, electrical - 12volt and 110, plumbing and painting. Not having the skill to perform any of the above tasks would mean having to hire a professional or call on some of your boating friends who do. 2) Do I have the space to do this? Building a boat requires a site that is large enough for you to be able to move around the entire hull. Should the hull not be covered by some roof of sorts the building time will increase dramatically unless you live somewhere of fair weather. 3) How far away is the site? The longer the drive to your building site the less time you will have on the boat. 4) Electricity? Building a boat requires several tools. At some point in time if not all the time you will need electric service to run various tools or lighting for the hull. 5) The most important question to ask is...support? For those of us who's captain makes the decisions with you, having their support and help will make the job go alot faster and easier. :o) Once all these questions have been asked and answered then you are ready to start. Starting to build your boat does mean that you have to order the steal and get ready to cut as soon as it arrives. Many things can be pre-ordered or even purchased before you start building. The more that you have done before you start the better off you will be and the faster the project will be to finish. I see all the time hulls for sale in our local rag of partially completed hulls and refits that are partially done. Having said all that, your now wondering if you should even start at all? Make your plans and make them carefully. Start or you may never finish. I was once told by a very wise man (my father) that once you give up your dream you start to die. I would rather die trying to get to my dream than never having the courage to start it at all. Pull all your friends in and all those favors you have out there and start to build your dream! 1350 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sun Feb 23, 2003 8:58pm Subject: tug hull in Origami Group, I am forwarding this message I got from Evan Shaler regarding the question about other kinds of boat in origami technique, specificallly the tugboat hull. Here then is my original question and Evan's comments on the subject: ----- Original Message ----- From: evan shaler To: Alex & Kim Christie Sent: Sunday, February 16, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: tug hull in Origami? > --- Alex & Kim Christie wrote: > > Hi Evan, > > Someone on the Origamiboats list asked about the > > origami tugboat mentioned in Brent's book; do you > > know anything about this boat, where it is, and > > whether the person made plans or had templates for > > it? Regards, > > > >Hi Alex, I am not sure which one he mentioned but if > it is the one I think it is here goes: It was built > probably about 14 years ago as a log salvage boat 30' > long. I worked on it for 3 weeks. The bottom of the > hull was pulled together with 2 plates in a very > shallow V starting from the bow and proceeding to very > flat in the stern. The hull sides were joined at the > bow and then pulled along either side onto the bottom > plates and bent into place and joined in the middle at > the stern. It was quite a simple process. Then the > decks were installed ,fuel tanks etc. etc. The pilot > house I think was wood. The boat is still running > around here in the harbour and the owner is quite > happy with it. > The designer of it is a friend of mine, John Dawson, > I don't think he kept any plans or patterns for it. I > could ask him but it might take a while as I don't see > him often and he is away a lot. I hope this is of help > to you...Evan 1351 From: Phil S. Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Tug Plans Thanks So much Alex for the information. That is wonderful. I can't wait til the big thaw here so I can get started. thanks Phil 1352 From: jalborey jalborey@y... Date: Tue Feb 25, 2003 8:21pm Subject: Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics Hi, I also would like somebody to comment on Philip's question. Allthough Brent and others have spoken a little bit about origamiboats sailing performance in earlier posts, I will find most useful to hear more comments from people who has sailed origamiboats with different lengths or rigs, in different weather conditions, etc. I think also that would be very helpful for us in the planning stage if somebody could comment on Philip's remarks about the building process. Thanks, Jesús 1353 From: silascrosby silascrosby@s... Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics Philip, In reply to your questions about the sailing characteristics here are my opinions. I have a 36' Swain,twin keel,centercockpit. Mast 47',boom 15'.Inner forestay with staysail(foot of sail 10'). Yankee jib~ 110% of foretriangle on a roller furling headstay.We have sailed her inshore and offshore. Rather tender initially but must be overpowered to submerge the lee rail. To sail more upright requires reefing. I have 3 reefs in the mainsail and use them all. Our mainsail is somewhat larger than the original sailplan;our first reef brings it down to the original size.Lightwind performance is quite good as a result of the large main. Our yankee jib is relatively small but with a foam luff it reefs quite well and the high clew means the sheet lead does not need to move. Heaving- to in lighter winds i.e. ~25 knots is not particularly effective but our one experience with strong winds was better. In the mid-Pacific the wind piped up to 45-50 knots for afew hours nad it was getting really uncomfortable,even with a triple-reefed main and a staysail. With the tiller lashed to leeward and mainsail strapped in amidships , staysail handed, The experience was confidence inspiring. We lay with the bow off ~45-50 degrees from the wind.Perfect.Sat in the pilot-house and watched the luminescent wave-tops break harmlessly well to windward. We have made some good coast-wise windward trips. Wet work but with attention to sail trim good progress was always made without the diesel.She is pinching above 45degrees to the apparent wind. In reasonable seas we tack through 95-100 degrees.This is not greyhound material but nor is it like a westsail. A major limiting factor is the relatively wide sheeting angle on the jib due to long spreaders. They make for a strong rig but at some windward cost.The fin keeer does a little better hard on the wind.One could go for a double spreader rig for a narrower sheeting angle. Prior to this boat we had a Spencer 35 which is very similar to an Alberg 30. I think that we are nearly as good to windward as the Spencer but significantly faster on all other angles. Directional stability is good but the sails still need balancing with reefing and trimming. With our big main we get weather helm in 12-15 knots of wind so that is when we put in the first reef.Then we have good balance. There it is for what it is worth. Steve. 1354 From: greenguy2ca prebble@n... Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 0:23pm Subject: Masts Hello group... I have a lead on a 50' used aluminum mast reportedly in good condition in Ontario where I work. Problem is getting it to Vancouver Island where I am hoping to launch my 36' twin keeler this summer. I am thinking of cutting it in half to make it trailerable. Inserting a sleeve and then welding is what I am thinking of to put it back together. Any thoughts on this regarding strength or other problems would be appreciated? Price tag is about $1000 which seems a good buy. P.S... also looking for used diesel Thanks.. Gary 1355 From: kingsknight4life wildcatbjj@h... Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 0:42pm Subject: Are there any...?? Junk rigged Swain boats out there? The junk rig seems like a perfect choice for this boat. It is low tech,low cost and easily repaired and built by home builders. At least that's what I heard. (I'm new to sailing and mya be wrong?) Anyone have any pics. or thoughts about this?? I'd like to uild mine junk rigged for low cost and ease of handling. 1356 From: kingsknight4life wildcatbjj@h... Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 0:44pm Subject: Builders in Edmonton? I think I read on herre somewhere that there's somone buildig a Swain boat here in Edmonton,where I live. If there is I'd love to come by and check out your boat and ak a few questions if it's at all possible. Thanks Rowland 1357 From: prairiemaidca bforster@i... Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:38pm Subject: Edmonton builders Hi Rowland: If you like you can email us at bforster@i... We have a 36 fin keel underconstruction just west of Stony Plain and I have a friend up at Smokey lake that has finished his bilge keeler. Martin and Betty (prairie maid) 1358 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 4:44pm Subject: Re: Masts Glen, I would ship the mast with Can-Am Marine transport. We brought a boat out from Ontario with them, and they carry masts slung on a rack (I don't know what their maximum allowable length is, however). If you can wait for somone transporting a really big boat, then they would simply sling your mast up with the other on the rack. There are a few other transporters that might do it, too. Contact a yacht club to find other numbers, perhaps, or even in Toronto, which would be the transportation hub. The people at SALTS in Victoria have the number for Can-Am(www.saltsociety .com), or check the 1-800 listings through www.canada411.com. If you can at all help it, don't whack that mast in half! Or at least only cut it down to your exact needs (45-47 feet?). Diesels: I just picked up a recent Vanc.Isle Buy, Sell and Trade mag, and saw this add for diesel in the industrial equipment section: Isuzu C240, 60 hp, low hours, $2250, Union Bay, 335-2243. No indication as to marinising parts, but the price is right. Also in the marine section: Isuzu 4 cyl c221 Marine Diesel with water cooled exhaust manifold, 50 HP, runs great, good oil pressure, $3400. 245-4410 Ladysmith Alex 1359 From: John Jones Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:30pm Subject: Re: Masts Don't be silly ... put it on a train and meet it there. 1360 From: John Jones Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 6:30pm Subject: Re: Masts Or sell it to me!!! 1361 From: richytill tillrc@h... Date: Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:05pm Subject: Re: Masts Also looking for a used aluminum mast. There is a 39' pole here in Sechelt for a reasonble price--too short for the 36" though. Has anyone compared mast wheight between wood, aluminum and stainless steel recently? rt 1362 From: mark_schlichting11 costavida@m... Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 7:46am Subject: Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics/mast construction Thanks Steve, for sharing your sailing experiences. Although we have "finished" the construction of our 36' fin keeler we have yet to sail offshore and appreciate hearing about the boats performance in heavy weather. Just one question, and I'm sure this will spark a lively debate: What is your mast constructed of? Ours is 6" x 47' steel tubing with stainless mast steps and other homemade hardware and fittings. Although it is heavy (I'd guess around 500lbs completed) Brent figured it was comparable to a solid wooden spar. It is great for low cost of material, ease of construction and attachment of fittings and hardware (mast steps, tangs, spreader sockets etc), low maintenance, & strength. Some weight aloft also gives the boat a better motion and may prevent a knockdown from a single wave. On the other hand, it could cause a problem if you are healed and fall into a trough. There are those who feel that less weight aloft is of primary concern. Winston Bushnell, for instance, builds his masts from a birdsmouth constuction of red cedar which is very light. He worries about our weight, I worry about his strength and inability to go aloft easily to retreive a halyard or check rigging. There are Brent boats out there with all types of masts and I haven't heard firsthand of any that have had a dismasting, knockdown or any other problem. Any thoughts? PS I don't know about the rest of you, but I really appreciate it when those that aren't too shy sign their postings with their name, location, and boat name (if applicable). It makes it easier to get to know everyone and it is nice to know how far away people are writing from. Mark S. Shearwater, BC "Costa Vida" 1363 From: pvanderwaart pvanderw@o... Date: Thu Feb 27, 2003 4:09pm Subject: Re: Are there any...?? > The junk rig seems like a perfect choice for this boat. I'm sure there are plenty of readers of Practical Junk Rig who would agree with you. I don't have any experience with either Swain boats or Junk Rig, but I do have a couple of comments. First, the principals of junk rig are very different from marconi rig. Junk rig calls for a unstayed mast. Marconi rig calls for stays, and on many boats, the mast is unsupported except for the stays. Junk rig puts all the sail area in the basic rig and reduces sail area as required. Marconi rig calls for a basic rig of medium size to which sail is added (genoa, spinnaker, etc.) when the wind is light, as well as reefing down when the wind is heavy. The junk rig does not allow for as much shape in the sails. All this is to say that you want to be aware of the tradeoffs you are making because they are considerable. Peter 1364 From: Zelda@i... Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:49am Subject: Re: Re: Are there any...?? What tradeoffs?? The ability to hang large sail area from a simplified rig without the need for downwind sails?? A low stress rig that doesn't need stays? Flat cut sails that can easily be made from cheap materials and perform well? The Junks I sail on are perfomance machines. their owners graduated from Macaroni rigs and would never go back! Make an informed decision, sail on some junks. Brent boats have been made with junk rigs and more are being built. Cheers, Paul Liebenberg 1365 From: jeff outz jgoutz@y... Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:12pm Subject: plans ok, now that you have me convinced that this is going to be an uncompleted project, does anyone know if there are any plans for a 26-28' double-ender that can be built using these techniques? also what gauge steel are you working in. any help would be appreciated. thx. 1366 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Double ender Theoretically doing a 26 ft double-ender using these techniques should be quite simple using the regular plans for the 26 foot Swain and modifying the stern for no transom. Jack Carson did this for his 44 footer Bella Via, and asking him would be best. I'm not sure if the stern was exactly the same as the bow, but it must be close. The Rudder on Bella Via is inboard. The steel for the hulls is 3/16ths of an inch. The cabin is 1/8ths. Alex 1367 From: silascrosby silascrosby@s... Date: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:03pm Subject: Re: Questions: Sailing characteristics/mast construction We put on a 47' Isomat extruded aluminum mast and boom. It has an extruded sail track and pole-car track. An expensive bit of hardware.It is the same section that is used on Fraser 42's. It would be pretty hard to rationalise on a bare-bones budget. However we did put on galvanised standing rigging and turnbuckles - because it is better,not only cheaper. Minimal ,if any rust,after 9 yrs (1 yr in the tropics) of good use.Cheap and strong, easy to replace. No knockdowns so far but that is not because of the mast material. Steve Millar, 'Silas Crosby' Courtenay 1368 From: fmichael graham Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 0:35am Subject: Re: Masts Don't cut your mast! Unlike mild steel, welding of aluminum does not return the properties to the weld affected zone that are found in the original specimen. While in Asia in the early '90's, I met an Australian whom had tried to repair an aluminum mast that was broken during a knock-down when he was travelling from Australia to Indonesia. On the second leg of his trip (to the Philippines) the mast broke along the welds. He tried to repair it in the same manner, using an inner sleeve in each repair, and it snapped again in strong winds, this time level with the upper extent of the sleeve. Upon viewing the broken sections, I could immediately appreciate the opinion which I had obtained from my Father (a metallurgical engineer), by long-distance telephone, regarding the Aussie's problem. If you need an aluminum mast for your boat then ship it or buy it locally. I wouldn't give a re-welded aluminum mast the chance of a fart in the wind, and if you go offshore with one you should probably change your name to "Bob"! Mike Graham (Vancouver, B.C. / Dalaguete, Philippines) 1369 From: richytill tillrc@h... Date: Sat Mar 1, 2003 2:50am Subject: Re: Masts I agree, aluminum butt welds are not ideal for masts. Looking at scrap stainless 6" for 47' mast at 380 lbs with 3 welds. Have an option to go aluminum at 223 lbs. Tough call but the cost advantage of the scrap ss is aluring. rt, "my Island", Sechelt. 1370 From: jeff outz jgoutz@y... Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 6:15am Subject: converting from wood/glass to steel hi, hate to keep bothering everyone, but how hard would it be to convert the plans for a wooden boat over to the origami steel concept? i have found a set of plans that i like for a 31' double ender, but they are only offered in ply or glass one off. any help appreciated. 1371 From: schafferhaus schafferhaus@y... Date: Sun Mar 2, 2003 8:02pm Subject: Re: converting from wood/glass to steel jeff - I am new to this group, and am afraid i have no knowledge base to give you an answer, but i'd like to know what 31' ply plan your talking about. i have not yet made the final decision re: wood or steel. good luck. steve 1372 From: pvanderwaart pvanderw@o... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: converting from wood/glass to steel Depending on the design, it might be possible and might not. Up to sizes considerable larger than 31', steel construction is heavier than ply or glass. In general, when designers offer a steel version, they use a different set of hull lines to allow for the additional displacement. See http://www.stadtdesign.com/, for example. One of the reasons that steel is heavier is that if you use thin plating to keep the weight down, the plate becomes very flexible and a lot of framing is needed. Since part of the concept of orgiami boats is to minimize the framing, that is going in the wrong direction. I don't have the weights of the Swain boats, but Tanton (http://www.tantonyachts.com/)has several steel double-enders in the 30'-35' range and the displacements are in the 15,000 to 20,000lbs range. That would be fully loaded, but as much as 50% more than a glass or ply boat of the same length. Peter 1373 From: jeff outz jgoutz@y... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 6:56am Subject: Re: converting from wood/glass to steel -hi again, my mistake, it's a 34'6" lod double ended pinky schooner from selway fisher yachts. gaff ketch rigged, disp. is 11 tons(?) i think it would make up into a very nice boat in either wood, glass or steel. hope that helps you out. 1374 From: schafferhaus schafferhaus@y... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 0:14pm Subject: Re: converting from wood/glass to steel thanks for the reply - that is a nice little ship - so you are planning round-bilge steel, or doing a modification? 1375 From: jeff outz jgoutz@y... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 2:32pm Subject: Re: converting from wood/glass to steel -i would like to be able to convert this plan to folded steel if possible, if not then i am going to look around a bit more to see if i can find something else, i really like this one though. i guess i might have to build in wood to get the look that i want (round bilge double end, ketch rig, and standing headroom). i was also looking at yawl rigging that same boat as well. if i can help let me know. jeff ps. if you need any chainplates, doublers, mast steps or anything less than 4'x8' cut from flat stock let me know, i used to be the supervisor of a sheetmetal shop here in town, so i can usually get the work done reasonable. 1376 From: pvanderwaart pvanderw@o... Date: Mon Mar 3, 2003 7:53pm Subject: Re: converting from wood/glass to steel The man with experience with steel pinkies is Thomas Colvin. See http://www.thomasecolvin.com/index.htm and especially http://www.thomasecolvin.com/pinkies.htm Colvin is an independent thinker, and highly regarded. He has experience designing, sailing, and building. I think he is retired, but still somewhat active. These boats are not origami, but should reflect the length/weight relationships for steel pinkies. If you go to http://www.yachtworld.com/listing/yw_advanced_search_form.jsp and search for steel boats in the US, you will find quite a number of Colvin boats, especially his Gazelle. Peter 1377 From: robertgm36 Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 2:49am Subject: twin keels There is an interesting article about twin keels in the latest issue of Ocean Navigator Magazine Robert 1378 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 1:02pm Subject: Re: twin keels Also an article on twin keels in Good Old Boat magazine this month by Ted Brewer. This is a great magazine by the way! Gary H. Lucas 1379 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wed Mar 5, 2003 11:12pm Subject: Re: twin keels Gary and Robert, What was the gist of the articles? I am building a 36' and intend putting twin keels on it. I don't have access to those publications here in the UK. Do they think that twin keels are a good thing or a bad thing? Regards, Ted 1380 From: robertgm36 Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 3:44am Subject: twin keels My apologies everyone. The twin keel article is in Good Old Boat as stated by Gary. I have both mags and maybe I should not stay up so late reading them and then attemping something that requires brain power. Ted Brewer has his own web site and maybe you can access his twin keel info there.He seems quite positive re twin keels and has a photo of a steel pilothouse boat he designed in the article. Also Good Old Boat magazine has a web page. You can find both via Google search. Robert 1381 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: twin keels I found the reference to Brewer's twin keel article on Good Old Boat website, but unfortunately neither articles are published online. They are referenced from this page: http://goodoldboat.no-ip.com:8000/articles/FMPro Brewer's 36 foot steel pilot house motorsailor PUFFIN uses twin keels, which you can also look at on his website at: http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_steel/puffin.htm . Before I found the Swain boats I was quite interested in this design. The drawing on his website gives no indication of the underbody of the boat, something I'll never understand since this is one of the most important aspects of the boat. I know I've got a photocopy that article "somewhere", but can't lay my hand on it, darn it. Patrick Bray has a nice article online about twin keels http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/twinkeels.html He also has one design which utilizes the origami method of construction, plus twin keels. Alex 1382 From: Michael Casling Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 7:06pm Subject: Re: Re: twin keels Ted I have not read the articles mentioned but I have some general thoughts. The choice of a keel seems to require two ideals, Performance and Function. If performance was the only requirement then a thin foil with a bulb would be good. But the problem is that it would not be practical in a lot of circumstances, like hitting rocks or having the tide go out. So a solid fin keel would be more practical, something like the large chunk of iron ( in the form of a fin ) on our moderate displacement plastic boat. This keel will not be damaged nor will the hull with encounters of the solid kind, and the boat can sit on it if need be. But if I was going to park the boat on the hard everytime the tide went out the twin keels make a sensible option. The articles generaly refer to the placement of the keels and how if you do this or that they will work well. They can work well but so far not as good as a single fin. Previous posts from owners of the 36 foot boats have stated this. As there are heaps of twin keel boats in England there is probably lots of info available there. I am sure Moodys sp? has a lot to say on this. My preference is for a solid fin keel but I would not discourage anyone from using twin keels. Michael Casling in BC Canada 1383 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Thu Mar 6, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: Re: twin keels I think that twin keels can have very good performance if done correctly. For instance making them much smaller, but asymmetrical so they have lots of lift. Most of the examples of twin keel boats are just two keels on the same hull, so they have more drag and go slower. As Ted Brewer mentions, very little tank testing has ever been done to establish what a good design might look like. So getting it right is going to be more luck than science. Gary H. Lucas 1384 From: ... Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 11:07am Subject: Re Twin Keels Hi Gary, For some time now I have been reading all the posts on this very interesting subject of origami construction. What you say about twin keels is correct, it is very important to get the shape of the asymmetrical keels correct. The profile needs to be an aerofoil,and has to be drawn to the correct proportions just like an aircraft wing,as it is performing the same function, lift, not just what might look right. If it is not the correct length to thickness it will create more drag, as would a rectangular section with just a radius on front and back. There is data available to plot the profiles. I am very interested in finding a way of converting the lines of a hull to origami construction and have been searching for software that will give me the developed shape of plate. Unfortunately the software that claims to be able to create the developed shape is very expensive. To date I have not seen any example of what it is claimed the software can do. Only when I have seen an example will I consider spending money on the software. Geoff Pearce 1385 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 2:06pm Subject: Re: Re Twin Keels I bought a set of Brent Swains plans for a 31' boat. I tried to bring the lines into a program that I use every day called Rhino 3D and create developable surfaces. I came to the conclusion that Brent's lines were probably taken from a hull he built, the hull was not built from the lines. To get the shape shown by his lines you have to have compound curves. I think this is correct because what happens is that pulling in the bow and stern forces a little compound curvature into the plates if the shape you cut doesn't actually represent a developable surface. This isn't a bad thing, the surface looks very fair and is very strong. It makes it nearly impossible though to make an accurate 3D model that can be unrolled to give you flat plates. I think I can tweak the lines a little and actually get developable plates. I managed to do it for the bow, but the stern is somewhat more difficult. I wanted an accurate shape because that would allow me to produce a file for plasma cutting of all the parts. More importantly I could design the interior of the boat and actually build it outside the boat without lots of hours fitting individual pieces. I am VERY disappointed with the boat interiors I see! I think it is because until now, with 3D software there is no good way to accurately envision what the interior will look like when it is complete. When faced with that huge irregular cavity you are left with building a piece at a time, fitting the next piece into the space left. Inevitably you find that if a settee had been 1/2" shorter the nav table would have fit properly, but of course it is too late to make that change! Imagine a Brent Swain boat built from a set of plans that included accurate drawings for every hull, deck and interior piece needed. I'll bet the building time could be reduced far more than the savings already achieved by Brent's origami technique! Gary H. Lucas 1386 From: prairiemaidca Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 4:23pm Subject: bow roller (book vs. Plans) Hi all: It's minus 40c on the prairie and not much fun to be out working with cold steel. I'm hoping to use a friends machine shop and plasma for a mass stainless cutting spree, bow roller, mooring bits etc.... In the book the bow roller picture shows it as being 6.5in. wide and in the plans it is 8in. wide and a different height. I'm looking at going with the 8in. in the plans... Opinions please... Martin (prairie maid).... 1387 From: jalborey Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 5:45pm Subject: Re: bow roller (book vs. Plans) Martin, I think that the drawings in the book could refer to any of Brent's designs; not necessarily to yours. I would proceed according with the plans's measures. Regards, Jesús 1388 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 6:43pm Subject: Re: bow roller (book vs. Plans) Another way of looking at it is to consider the width of your rollers, or the material you will make them from or your anchor and its chain or the steel you have and make the frame to suit. I have started making my bow rollers from a block of medium density polyethylene (MDPE) that I have been given. I would have preferred polypropylene but I don't have any. I haven't finalised my roller design yet because the MDPE is fairly soft so I am thinking I might need steel cheek plates to stop it eventually jamming in the frame. Regards, Ted 1389 From: prairiemaidca Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 8:41pm Subject: bow rollers Hi All: I managed to pick up a chunk of half in. stainless that is 9ft by 21 inches wide, for a couple of bucks. I was also given a large piece of 3/4in. very dense white plastic material. I'm not sure what type it is but it came from a bakery table top. It's very tough stuff to cut. My jig saw had a hell of a time cutting off a piece that I could send to the island for my father to soak in salt water for a few weeks. The salt test showed no sign of swelling. Another material option open to me for rollers is a nylon type material that is used for bearings. Decicions, decicions. Maritn (Prairie Maid) 1390 From: jalborey Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 9:53pm Subject: Re: bow rollers Martin, The material you are describing is probably high density poliethylene, the same stuff which kitchen chopping boards are made of and Brent Swain recommends in his book to build the bow roller. At least here (Spain), butcher's chopping boards, heavy duty counters, etc. are made of this sort of plastic. Hope this helps, Jesús 1391 From: ... Date: Fri Mar 7, 2003 11:35pm Subject: Re bow rollers Hi, I think your piece of bakery table will High density Polyethylene (HDPE) or High molecular weight (PE) which is very tough to cut,it is similar to the material that is used to make the plastic drums for chemicals. Virtually no water absobtion,it needs to be turned or machine with very sharp tools,with more top rake on the turning tools. The nylon type material is very tough but will absorb a very small amount of water, so the hole should be drill slightly oversize or the nylon will swell with the water and lock on the bolt or pin that it runs on. Nylon also requires the same tools Geoff Pearce 1392 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 2:42am Subject: Re: Re bow rollers If anybody is interested I may have some large diameter polyethylene, nylon and polypropylene bar stock in diameters from about 3" to 6". I may also have a source for some more cheap. I know a guy that has been collecting piles of the stuff for several years. Gary H. Lucas 1393 From: prairiemaidca Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 3:25am Subject: winch parts Hi All: Can anyone please tell me what diameter the axle for the winch is??? I have some heavy walled 1 7/8 od 316ss but I'm not sure if this is of sufficient diameter to do the job for the 36ft. Martin (Prairie Maid) 1394 From: mark_schlichting11 Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 4:02am Subject: Re: Re bow rollers Smaller bar or rod stock is great for making the sheet leads in Brent's book; I just cut of sections with a table saw. The 1/2' sheets cut with a hole-saw works great for making blocks and the halyard sheeves. If you can't find any at a scrapyard or from a friend, they also sell it at Industrial Plastics (although expensive). Mark S. Shearwater Costa Vida 1395 From: downdeep1968 Date: Sat Mar 8, 2003 11:07pm Subject: 40 foot interior photos Does anyone out there have any photos they could send me or post that they have taken of the interior of their boat. I am going to be building a 40 foot version and am trying to invision the space inside. I have looked at the photos Alex has posted but if anyone has anything else I would love to see them! 1396 Repeated post 1397 From: farmulation Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 0:43am Subject: building cost - 36 footer Hi: I just read thru Brent's book for the first time. I'm after current info on the building cost for hull and deck of the 36 footer. That is for the whole enchilada, keels, rudder, skeg, house, etc., ready for installation of hatches and fitting out. Is there someone to whom you could refer me for this info, should you not have it at the ready? Thanks John McWilliams 1398 From: Edward Stone Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: Re bow rollers My copy of Brent's book (Page 35) suggests using high density polypropylene rather than polyethylene. I would think that any plastic used as a chopping board or work surface would have the qualities needed to be a successful bow roller. Regards, Ted 1399 From: jeff outz Date: Sun Mar 9, 2003 2:25pm Subject: plans hi, i was trying to find out if anypne had a set of old study plans for a nice double ender , or something that i could modify into a double ender that they would sell. i hate to buy new plans and start modifying them right off the bat. thx jeff 1400 From: mat_man22 Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: plans Jack Hanna's famous "TAHITI" 32'. "Carol Ketch" is the 36' version. TAHITI Plans were published through Mechanics Illustrated in the sixties and my be available at library loan. see: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/wf/tahitiana/index.htm Book entitled "A Ketch Called Tahiti" by John Stephen Doherty. It is all about Hanna and his designs. Hope this helps Mat 1401 From: farmulation Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 5:41am Subject: resources for study Greetings steel freaks! I hope we're far enough along in our journeys to not be offended by such a moniker. I assure you that I identify as such. The business at hand: I'm after a reding list or some such so I can study up on the mysteries and idiosyncracies of this material and method. Does a catlog of designs exist and if so, where might I find it? I live in Victoria and work in Sidney. 1402 From: mat_man22 Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:35am Subject: Re: plans FAMOUS TAHITI KETCH, THE ... Hanna's famous cruising ketch. Includes full particulars and plans for Tahiti II.. John G. Hanna, 44 pages, 10 plate(s), Pub No. 5210, booklet, $9.95, http://www.dngoodchild.com/5210.htm 1403 From: schafferhaus Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 6:58pm Subject: re: plans Hey! Here I am cruisin' thru a steel boat forum and find plans mentioned for one of my favorite wood boats! Anyone know how and where to get actual building plans anymore? steve 1404 From: pvanderwaart Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:08pm Subject: Re: plans Get real. By the time you take the plans of a boat with very moderate performance and convert them to steel, you are going spend a lot of energy to get a boat of very moderate performance that no buyer in his right mind should touch. I'm not sure what the prices of the Swain plans are, but you can get good plans along with the designer's blessings and support for very little money. See for example, Green Peace and Tonnerre at http://www.tantonyachts.com/ for $300. Even if you are not convinced that the plans will save you that piddly amount during constrution, it will certaily get you many times that in price when the boat is sold. Peter 1405 From: John McWilliams Date: Mon Mar 10, 2003 11:01pm Subject: Re: Re: plans Hi Peter. Thanks for the mail. I checked out Tanton's site and am including it in my list of related items. I'm curious as to your vehemence on the topic. Are you builder, sailor, broker, what? Is there some interest for you in this beyond enthusiasm? I'm just beginning my investigations into this area of endeavor so am more interested in infomation than opinions, but being a creature of strong opinions myself, I appreciate how the two infom each other. Best regards John 1406 From: mat_man22 Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: plans I am wrong. I was assuming that because Weston Farmer's TAHITIANA is steel that Hanna's TAHITI was also. Sorry for the confusion. Mat 1407 From: John Jones Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:54am Subject: steel Okay I've tried to find a sheet of steel 36'X8'X3/16" and Ontario does not offer such a size. Do you have any idea as to where I can get two pieces this size? John 1408 From: mat_man22 Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:39am Subject: Re: plans William Atkin drew hundreds of plans suitable for the personal builder, for all sizes and types of wood and steel vessels. Catalog of over 200 designs previously published in "Motor Boating"; Obtain from Atkin & Co http://www.by-the-sea.com/atkin&co/ Study Plans are available for $6.00 Atkins has double-enders, this is a copy of a 20' wood in the MoToR BoatinG series. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boatdesign/files/Economy%20Jane/ Index of Plans MoToR BoatinG Magazine: http://www.boat-links.com/Ideal/index.html Once you found some plans you should be able to get a copy at library loan. 1409 From: Glen Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: steel I'm not too sure where you live in Ontario but someone out there must sell the stuff! Don't give up, you might have to look a little further out of town or maybe another town for that matter. In the search if you can't locate a dealer directly try asking some of the local welding/fabricating shops. They must know of someone who can supply it. If that does not work look and see if there are any scrap dealers around and ask them. They might not be too happy that they are not getting the sale but hey you might be knocking on their door again for various other parts in the near future. The last place I might try if all else fails is to look and see if there is a school or tech. college that teaches welding or metal work and ask the instructor where they get their steel from. Keep looking!! It's out there somewhere. 1410 From: pvanderwaart Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:46pm Subject: Re: plans I am the moderator of the Yahoo group 'boatdesign' which is mostly devoted to home-designed, home-built boats made out of two or three sheets of plywood. We do discuss larger projects from time to time. I also follow the discussions of several other lists like this one that can be counted on to be interesting. One of the recurring events on these boards is a post asking about 'free plans.' Amateurs really hate to spend a buck for anything that does not end up as a tangible part of the finished boat. This includes not just plans, but also material used for temporary molds, ribbands, etc. These latter items are used by professonials in wooden boat construction and they are the experts in building the quickest and cheapest way. Of course, they may be able to use the material more than once, but I'm not sure how often they actually do. The labor time they save is more important than the material cost. Amateurs usually do not put a price on their time but they really should. It's sort of like the inverse of communism (which held that all value was in the labor) and is equally incorrect. I can point out that saving labor time is what the origami method is all about. To get back to the point, 'free' plans are most often old plans. Old plans have several problems of which the first, and probably least important, is that the design itself is old. You can get a better plan today than the Tahiti ketch, but if you want to sail the oceans slowly and safely, the Tahiti will still get you there. The bigger problems are (1) that new plans will reflect new methods that are easier and faster, (2) old plans often call for materials and fittings that are no longer easy to get, and (3) new plans usually come with a living, breathing designer to answer your questions. Finally, though it may not seem so, the hull shape and construction is actually one of the easier parts of yacht design, especially for cruising sailboats. If you are not qualified to design the hull, I don't think you are qualified to make major changes to the design. That's a personal opinion, and I grant that there are exceptions, but I have also heard a lot of designers stories about how amateurs made changes to their designs that made them unsafe. It's not just that the designer deserves payment for his work, but that his work will save you money and contribute to your success. Peter 1411 From: John Jones Date: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:28pm Subject: Re: Re: steel Yup, I even went to the sources source, "Stelco" in Hamilton, went to the ship builders and ship repair guys along the Welland Canal, I'm also affiliated with a dry-dock in Toronto and I'm well familiar with local fabricators. I'm still checking around but I may need to find a source out of province, just thought someone in the group would know of a place and maybe that place will know of a place or contact closer to home. I'll find it somewhere. 1412 From: John McWilliams Date: Wed Mar 12, 2003 4:30am Subject: Re: Re: plans-free? Peter Thanks for the reply re: plans. I'm intruigued by your apparent assumption that I was in search of free plans. I think that if you review my original posting containing the request for plans and read it carefully you will see that I said I was looking for plans, or a source for plans. let me be more clear. Who is selling plans for steel boats built by this origami method? How do I get in touch with them? This query goes out to one and all. Regards John 1413 From: nadim Date: Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:35pm Subject: New member Hi all, I though I'd present myself shortly. Nadim, 35, father, computer eng. and not directly using English in my everyday's life. I took me quite a while before deciding to join this group as my interrests are not directly in origammiboats. I read _all_ the archive and I finally joined as I think I have a few ideas to share and there is certainly lots of ideas and experience to get from this group. The one thing that might make me an 'heretic' in this group is that I don't like to sail! it's better than motor ones way around but still I don't like sailling much (I get bored). But I sure like boats and I love building things. I had a boat build and I was working on it too so I have practical experience. I plan to build another boat in the comming years and I already started writting ideas down. The boat won't be an origamiboat, as it doesn't scale, but I still think the idea is very good. I'll have trillion questions and I hopefully can answer some. Question of the day: Except this group, are there other sympatical groups, specially on metal boats and catamarans, around? I am quite allergic to 'Designer non sense' like some other users in this group ;-). Second question of the day (00:00 just passed): are there any origamiboats build in Sweden, particularely in the south. It would be very educating to touch and feel one. Nadim. 1414 From: Aaron Edelman Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:28am Subject: steel hull Hi there, guessing from the info, you are looking for steel boat building information. At the recent Boat show in Vancouver, B.C. I picked up a book called THE STEEL HULL, by Roger McAfee published by Nighthawk Marine Ltd. Vancouver B.C. ISBN 096865366 Table of content Foreword About the Writer Introduction Nature of Steel The Nature of Aluminum and Copper Nickel Metals Discussion Corrosion in Steel Corrosion Protection Steel Hull Repair Social Considerations Project Management Do It Yourself - How Much? Buying Right Tools and Equipment Safety Welding Management and Equipment Welding, The Technical Stuff Cutting Steel Hull Repair Methods Hull Repair, External Patch Hull Repair, Insert and Edge Overlap Expedition Cruiser Financial Consideration Conclusion Mr.. McAfee has a lifelong experience with Boats, two degrees from UBC and is an independent Consultant and Strategist. Has delivered a boat from the East Cost through Panama Canal up the West Coast. His current project is the rebuilding of a 65' steel vessel. No, I have no vested interest in Mr.. McAfee's business, and or in the sale of his books. I've met Mr.. McAfee briefly at the boat show (when I bought his book). Roger also wrote another excellent book called THE DRY BOAT available from the same source. other sites to visit: www.metalboatsociety.com Hope this helps, Ron 1415 From: Larry Doyle Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: Re: plans-free? John, Here's the info on obtaining plans for Origami sailboats. Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350 and for the 40 $500. They can be ordered the same way as the book, as below: To reach Brent by mail, write to: 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 To order a copy of Brent's book "How to Build a Better Steel Boat -- a Heretic's Guide" (illus.,100 pages paperback) send $20 plus $3 for postage to the above address. Brent's e-mail address is: brentswain38@y... 1416 From: greenguy2ca Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Steel I also could not find steel 36'x8' in Ontario despite an exhaustive search and many phone calls. BC is your best bet. My project was initiated on Vancouver Island because of the ready supply of all kinds of new & scrap materials plus this is the best place to get "how to" help and ideas. Gary 1417 From: jalborey Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 3:44pm Subject: Re: New member Nadim, There are, as far as I know, two other good metal boatbuilding forums; the Metal Boats Discussion in Boatbuilding.com (not much going on in this one lately), and the Metal Boat Society's forum, which is a really good one. Don't know of any origami boatbuilder in Sweden. Hope this helps Jesús 1418 From: John Jones Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: Steel FOUND IT Cheque out "Russel Metals" in Mississauga Ontario who have in stock 30',40',50'X 8'& 10'.... The 40'X 8'X 3/16" currently goes at $1150.00 per sheet plus taxes. E-mail 905-819-7337 Terry Butler. He says they have it in stock right now.......John 1419 From: nadim Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:23pm Subject: Re: New member Thank you "Jalborey" for your answer. I want to know where my money goes,like most in this forum I guess, I apreciate when prices are given. unfortunately some of you live in the states other in canada. Could it be possible to write C$ or US$ when you give prices? Could those who are more intressted in catamarans speak up? Has any one expiremented in making a origami hull that is thin an long. I have one or two ideas about how to make a catamaran hull simply but none uses origami. I'd be interested in a hul 60 foot long and 7 foot at widest beam. There was an australian wanting to well half a pipe in the middle of his hull, is he still around? A discussion I'd like to be involved in is how much a complete boat would cost, not just the hull. I know that it would depend on what is put in the boat and that is exactly the discussion that interests me. what is needed, how much does it cost and how to built it oneself but best of all, how to do without? I recently saw a picture of a (certainly very expensive) 60-70 foot sail boat with a huge Inmarsat A tracking antenna mounted on an arch, I couldn't stop myself from laughing loud at the silly image. One thing is sure, money doens't make people smart(er). Nadim. 1420 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:28pm Subject: Re: Re: New member Nadim, Long skinny hulls should be very easy to do by origami, if you don't mind a long hard chine for most of the hull. Wide hulls are much more difficult to do in Origami. Gary H. Lucas 1421 From: nadim Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Origami catamaran hulls Gary, I forgot to give you one element, the hull should be a very shallow draft. but I don't think it changes too much the problem at hand. Lets forget about aesthetics for a moment and concentrate on mechanics and hydrodynamic. some people object to the hard chine of Brent's design but mechanically I believe it brings great strength to the hull. The hard chine is an angle iron of great dimensions. It is also a weak point because of the lack of elasticity at the chine (compared with the rest of the hull). I haven't seen any real size swain boat but I think the hard chine would be quite strait (most 'traditional' hard chine designs have curved chines). This brings me to hydrodynamics or to keep it simple (to myself mainly) the form of the hull. Say I'd like a hull shape that is quite sharp in the bow and quite wide in the stern. Wouldn't that be incompatible with the long strait chine? What about draft? If I was to build a catamaran, I wouldn't want it to have more than 50-60 cm of draft. The swain design seems to be quite deep V. (Again, I would really love to touch and feel on a real boat, any Swedish contructor?) I also understand why the boats are designed up to 40 foot. A narrow 60 foot hull would be very floppy and hard to make stand I think. Because I 've already build a real big fat heavy boat, I know that the traditional way of building boats is just plain silly. This said, I'd like to give _my_ opinion on the aesthetics of the swains design. "WHO CARES ABOUT A CHINE???" specially if underwater. I've seen a lot of beautiful boats and many more ugly ones. The ugly ones where used, the beautiful one, most often, not! Swain design is neither beautiful nor ugly but it is sure practical. I would recommend anyone who looks at a swain design and thinks: "is it beautiful? what about the chine" to buy themselves an X-box and spend the rest of their life's playing games on the Internet. Nadim. 1422 From: Jim Phillips Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:44pm Subject: Nadim's cat Hi Nadim, Yeah, that crazy Aussie wanting to weld half an aluminium pipe in the middle of each hull is still here. I haven't got my pipes yet, and the plans and ideas are still taking shape. I don't think origami is really appropriate for cat hulls. The resistance of a cat has more to do with the wetted surface area of the hull, not the displacement. Therefore the hulls of a cat should to be close to semi-circular in section to reduce the wetted area. This is especially crucial if you want to get decent light air performance, and light airs are a more frequent problem than heavy weather when you are cruising. The origami method just doesn't produce the right shape, which means you would probably be better off getting the half-pipes for the hulls and then welding on the topsides and deck. Of course, a modified origami method could be used for the bow and stern sections which will be respectively steeper and flatter than the central part of the hull. Due to the inherent need to keep a cat light, it would have to be built in aluminium and needs to be a good 50 foot or so before it becomes a logical choice of material. Nadim, you mentioned 60' hulls with 7' beams. Is this the waterline beam or the actual hull beam? Depending on what you intend to do with it (cross oceans or have a floating caravan?), you need to think of an adequate waterline length:beam ratio. I now want at least 11 or 12:1. Chris White has some interesting comments on this in his book and on his website. Right now, we are putting money together and have not commenced building. Still wallowing in the nostalgia of past cruises and planning for the next! Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. 1423 From: put_to_sea Date: Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:50pm Subject: Converting designs to origami I like Brent's designs but I just can't leave well enough alone. I have been toying with the idea of converting some other designs to origami construction. I have read the posts of some of you that are using Rino, etc. but I'm not that high tech and I am not sure I understand all the discussion. My question is: If a single chine hull was designed to be plated in steel or plywood, is it always possible to unwrap the skin of each half into a flat plate that could then be pulled together origami style? I have been intending to build a model of one of Buehler's designs to try this on but being always short on time, I thought I would ask first. Thanks, Amos 1424 From: nadim Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:00am Subject: Re: Nadim's cat Hi, I am glad you are still here. I don't know if our subject is best suited on this forum be we can continue here till we get get kicked out. I can always start a mailing list on my own server if needed. But I think there many part of our discussion that might interest the swain boat owners or owners to be. > I don't think origami is really appropriate for cat > hulls. Neither do I, but I wouldn't mind being proved wrong. >The resistance of a cat has more to do with > the wetted surface area of the hull Could you please explain this in more details. I don't see what the wetted area has to do with resistance! > Therefore the hulls of a cat should to > be close to semi-circular in section to reduce the > wetted area. This is especially crucial if you want > to get decent light air performance, and light airs > are a more frequent problem than heavy weather when > you are cruising. I guess you know of http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm The generated hull is quite semi circular, if I am not wrong, the display is wrong as the hull should be half that wide in the 3D display. I plan to start from such a hull. > The origami method just doesn't > produce the right shape, which means you would > probably be better off getting the half-pipes for the > hulls and then welding on the topsides and deck. Can't agree more. Here is my plan : 1/ build a frame representing the hull at water level 2/ repeat point 1 3 times as both hull are symmetrical and I don't mind having strength top sides as the frame can be constructed simultaneously you get exactly the same shape. 3/ produce 4 top sides, basically 4 rectangles, and weld angle iron longitudinal (this is a directly picked from the origami method), transverse frame can very easily be added when the hull is up. A propos, transversal framing, I read a mail where the guy was more or less saying "what kind of a designer would draw a hull were the furniture are used to make the hull more rigid?". A smart one. 4/ build the hulls on one of the frames, that part being 50-60 cm high, it should be too difficult to get it done We now have 4 pieces per hull that need to be welded together. The pieces are big but not unmanageable at all, have a party and offer some beers and you'll get all the man power needed to hold the hull will you point weld it. > Due to the inherent need to keep a cat light, it would > have to be built in aluminium... so before it becomes a logical choice of > material. I don't agree and I'd like to discuss it later. There is nothing religious in choosing a material and I am ready to fight (verbally) to prove that steel is a better choice. I hope you can make me change mind.(yes it is possible but tough) > and needs to be a good 50 foot > Nadim, you mentioned 60' hulls with 7' beams. Is this > the waterline beam or the actual hull beam? > Chris White has some interesting comments on > this in his book and on his website. could you please send a link. Agreed, 50 foot sounds like a lower limit. I am a _not_direct supported of imperial measures so I switch to my favorite metric system. I'd like a 18 * 2 meters hull that's a 9/1 ratio. I don't think there is much to gain with a 11 or 12/1 ratio. but you loose a lot of space for the same length. 18 * 1.8 m is also OK but I want a thick insulation that would make the boat unsinkable too. In the mail I read you talked about 2 other points, one I completely disagree with and a second I agree with. You talked about having overhang, why would you like overhang in a catamaran bow? It's the place in the boat that gives you the less buoyancy, you are going to exacerbate pitching and it's so narrow you can't stock anything there and it is mechanically fragile. If the side plates over the hull are 2 meters high, I would make them 1m or less at the bow qnd zithout overhang. The other point was 'cheating' the water line by making the hull longer but not necessarily use the extra length as an habitable area. I saw a picture of a catamaran that had 2m plus at the rear that consist of stairs and a fantastic boarding area that made getting in and out of a tender very easy. > Right now, we are putting money together and have not > commenced building. So am I, but I need to bounce some ideas with someone. What about mast and sail type? I also have some crazy ideas. Sideboard design? Capsizing/ unsinkable? Security, lifeboat, ....? Winch/furler? Engine propultion? Anchors? Painting? Interior? Maintenance? ... > Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little > time as possible in a boatyard. Talk for yourself, I am more intrested in building than sailing but I still want it to go fast, very fast. I can imagine my caravan parked on pacific island as long as someone else sails it there ;-) Nadim. 1425 From: pvanderwaart Date: Wed Mar 12, 2003 2:45pm Subject: Re: plans-free? I apologize. I went with the 'hot button' response rather than a close reading of your post. As for sources of origami plans other than Swain, you should look through the message archives here since the topic has come up from time to time. Tanton is interested in new ideas and has an aluminum powerboat design that he calls 'origami', but I recall any origame steel saiboats. Int the Sept/Oct 1987 issue of Boatbuilder, there was an article by Gary N. Curtis about origami boatbuilding. That's the first place I ever saw it. He mentions that Claes Lundstrom Yacht Design in Sweden held US and British patents on origami methods. Curtis's address way back then was given as Silver Lining Yacht Sales, Pier 2 Berth 54, Long Beach, CA 90802. I would bet against that still being a viable address. A Goolge search on Lundstrom reveals that he went into the software side bigtime: http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/indexL.html and apparently still does boats. An inquiry there might produce a design or two, or another designer or two. PEter 1426 From: Jim Phillips Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: Nadim's cat Nadim, Thanks for the comments. If we are bothering other Origami readers with this frameless metal cat discussion, please speak up and we'll shuffle off elsewhere. WETTED SURFACE AREA In answer to your question about wetted surface area, this is what I have learned (please correct me, anyone, if I stray from the accepted logic): Resistance is the force that slows down your boat and consists of two basic types: 1) wave making resistance, and 2) friction. The first is a result of all that water that you must push out of the way so that your boat can move forward. This obviously depends on the amount of water that must be pushed aside and is therefore directly related to the boat's displacement. Pushing the water aside produces a wave. The second part, friction, is caused by the flow of water over the hull. THis is related to the total surface area of the hull that has contact with the water. It is a totally different type of resistance to the wave making resistance. In the case of a cargo ship, the displacement and wave-making resistance are more important than the friction between the water and the hull. Hence the wetted surface area is less significant and the underwater profile resembles a rectangular box with a crude pointy end and allows efficient use of space for cargo. However a cat is so light and the profile is so long and skinny (like a knife), that the wave-making resistance is minimal. So the friction becomes the over-riding factor in limiting the cat's speed. So if you want to go FAST, you need to limit the friction and this is done by minimising the wetted surface area. For a given displacement, the semi-circle is the optimum shape. STEEL / ALUMINIUM As far as the steel/aluminium question goes, that has been extensively discussed elsewhere. It comes down to the maths of whether you want your cat to sail more than 5 knots or not. If you do, well, the steel is too heavy. Or build a 50 metre cat. :) We have always sailed steel boats. I firmly believe metal is the way to go and, in a monohull, you can choose between steel or aluminium. However, we have now taken the decision to go with a cat and, due to the weight limitations imposed on a cat, there is no choice but to use aluminium. There is plenty of discussion at the Metal Boat Society forum on this. YOUR PLAN Sounds like you have some very interesting, labour-saving ideas. However, I don't quite understand the bit about the four frames. Why does the deck need a frame? Once you have your half-pipe hull, don't you just weld on the topsides (4 rectangles for the 2 hulls), space them appropriately at the top with off-cut pieces of angle, and start welding the deck on to that? When do you plan to start construction? Any tentative ideas for a launch date, plus or minus 2 years? BOW OVERHANG As a teenager, we would wait for strong wind warnings and then take a 16' calypso cat (similar to a hobie) out for a whirl on Moreton Bay. After pitch-poling it numerous times and having a ball of fun, I have a fear of doing the same thing in a big cat in heavy weather. It's not probable, but is possible, so I want to minimise that possibility. The overhang is there as insurance, not for storage, or increased speed or anything else. When we're surfing down huge waves and I see that bow bury 5 metres into the trough, I want to feel confident that it will pop back up again. We have been through this in a steel mono off the Moroccon coast, running bare poles and burying that bow - exciting stuff in a mono, but dangerous in a cat. It is a logical argument to say that a cat, in the same situation, would throw out a drogue and slow down. This is true, but surely it is better to have reserve flotation designed into the boat, right where it may be needed to prevent pitch-poling, rather than rely on an item that may or may not be ready when needed? We are always bumping into objects around the coast, running on to beaches and reefs. It is one of the joys of having a metal boat and we have no shame in admitting it. Our boats always had a few battle scars above and below the waterline, but they went everywhere and took us on many adventures. Plastic boaters are quite different and must sail accordingly. Other yachties have beatiful boats but they never leave the marina. We are all different! Anyway, a bow overhang means the boat will rise up as it collides with an object, whereas a plumb bow will just collapse inwards. So you either take care where you can go and how you sail, or build in a design mechanism that takes care of it for you. Additionally, the space inside the overhang can be closed off and used as a collision bulkhead in the remote case that it is holed in this area. LENGTH : BEAM RATIO Rather than starting with a desired length and beam and accepting the ratio as appropriate, why not reorganise the sequence of the questions? Ask yourself, what beam is necessary to hold the accomodation and stores you need? What ratio do you need to get the perforance you would like? It is an interative process, but from this, you will arrive at the appropriate length and it may well be longer than 18 m. To increase the beam, you can always do this above the waterline. You only need to increase the beam below the waterline if you intend to increase the displacement of the entire boat. In terms of accomodation, a 14 m mono may well be equivalent to a 10 m cat with a bridgedeck. But if you want real cat performance you may decide to get rid of the bridedeck apartment and use the hulls for accomodation. Then you will need a WL beam of 1.8 - 2.2 m and therefore a length anywhere from 16 to 20 m. As far as rigging, engines etc, I'll paste in a previous email here. Some of these ideas are still evolving. Please give feedback - abusive, laughingly critical or whatever. 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. I don't understand why cats always have the wing deck below the level of the outer decks. Is it just a psychological safety issue to feel surrounded by the topsides of the hulls, or is there a structural reason? 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in port, the main function of any cockpit, will be on the central deck. 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V-ed, knife-shaped bow. 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'. Purpose is for beaching, not leeway reduction. 12. Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external centreboard. I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing deck. 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a sugar scoop stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond sugar scoop to enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder. 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering backed up by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the engine unless on a delivery. Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of skeg. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the normal rigging there is less potential for failure. The rig will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the wing deck. Please blow this logic down in flames. 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing). 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down. Could go on for hours, but there are a few points for discussion. So what's the point of building a boat if you are not going to sail it? Hey, Nadim, I have an idea! Why don't you build my cat and then I will come to Sweden and pick it up? We can both do what we prefer to do. Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. 1427 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:11am Subject: converting to origami Lundstrom did a sailboat in aluminum using their software Touch 3-D. They did a very modern looking hull and they say it went together very easily. It may be of interest to someone looking for a more shallow-underbodied hull of lighter displacement. He has photos of it on his site still, I think: http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/indexL.html I think the software is $700 USD or so, but it might be handy for doing you own custom design using their plate-unwrapping technology. This might be a good way of converting any design to origami, in fact. A very cheap bit of software that needs no computer is the venerable piece of card paper or construction paper. Anything you model with this should work like any other sheet material, with the exception that steel changes shape when heated by welding. In any case, I'm not sure if boat design software takes heat distortion into account either. I asked Brent about converting other designs a few years ago; he said it wasn't really that difficult. Now, I didn't get all of what he said (partly from a thick skull, and also I was still just learning about origami at the time), but it basically involves: 1. Modeling your original chine hull first, then working out where you want it to be round bilged in the fore and aft sections -- usually bow and stern sections where you don't want the chine rising out of the water. 2. The next step would be to adjust the paper model's midsection to conform to the origami-type slices and darts. It may sound primitive, but you could just tape together your hull pieces as a chined hull, as per the original design, then simply decide how you want it to unwrap with an exacto knife or scissors. Brent's choice as to where to put the darts and slices is done so as to make use of the long lengths of steel, plus keeping weldments below the waterine whenever possible. I'd copy this protocol for obvious reasons. 3. After separating your model down the centreline, you can "unwrap" it (you'll use only one half, which you'll then replicate for both sides so all is symetrical), the same way a computer programme would, and lay it flat. As it is cut, so it will go back together -- no different than peeling an orange. 4. To make the bow and stern sections conic, you'd lay the unwrapped pattern from your model flat, then use it as a template for a new pattern, keeping in mind that where there were chines on the original model you'll be leaving the material in one piece so you can bend it into shape. When I have some time I'll monkey with this using card paper and try and post some images of what I find out. I've been pondering doing a skinny power-cruiser using origami method and this is probably the way I'd figure it out. There are many designs out there that would make excellent starting points for this type of craft. Alex 1428 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:25am Subject: Re: Nadim's cat The cat idea is fine. Origami would work for long thin hulls, as others have mentioned, with the obvious exception that you'd have a chine below the water as per the monohulls. But would it work? Yes. It wouldn't yield exactly the type of hull section in a modern racing cat, but as long as it is a long skinny hull it will still have a speed advantage over a fat hull, even if wetted surface is higher than a U-shaped hull. Other than the chine, you could approximate the modern hull pretty closely, however. I think there are a few ideas out there already for quick-build cat hulls, however, that may be of interest: KSS by Derek Kelsall looks very origami-like, only using foam-sandwich that is first laid up on a long flat bed. The darts in the bottom run athwartships (this would not be a good idea with aluminum with the number of darts they show). http://www.kelsall.com/kss.htm Constant Camber --Jim Brown and John Marples. You have to like epoxy for this one! Also check out Tony Bigras' site about his Osram catamaran. This guy lived on our last island (Gabriola) and I got to see his boat close-up a few times as he was working on it. http://www.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/ These hulls could have been done in origami, as they are hard chine already. He estimated CDN $95,000 for completing the hull. He sold it as his marriage didn't last the building period. Makes you think... Alex 1429 From: Claude Poitras Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:48am Subject: RE: Steel I see that there is also a "Russel Metals" in Edmonton Alberta. They probably also sell the same size of steel. I believe that there is a few people, in Alberta, building an origami steal boat, in Alberta. I would love to know, where they got there steel. Since I live in Fort McMurray Alberta, It would be closer to home. Claude Poitras present sailboat (Claudius) in Bosun Charter 1430 From: prairiemaidca Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:36pm Subject: steel supply Hi all: We purchased most of our steel from russel metals inc. 7016 99st nw edmonton. We have also delt with price steel in the west end of edm. By the way Claude we have your cladius booked for our annual bosuns charter this sept. We actually met I believe the first year you had the boat. P.S. there is no sales tax on the steel we buy here in Alberta Cdn.. Martin and Betty forster (Prairie Maid) 1431 From: nelstomlinson Date: Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: New member If you want to see some long, skinny hulls made by a similar method, Google on ``tortured ply''. That should turn up some pictures of canoes and catamarans made by cutting darts out of plywood. It might be easier to do what they show using metal than the thin plywood they worked with. Nels 1432 From: nadim Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 0:26am Subject: Re: Nadim's cat Hi all, I am very happy on how things are going on on this list. monohull lovers please join the discussion, this is a about a cat but a cat is just 2 monohulls put together. Jim and alex, thank you for your answers. I think the discussion is so big that we have to organize it. Take a piece at a time. What I need (and I think most builders need) is a design and construction plan, and I don't mind writting mine here. I'll buy brent's book, it's his plan and there are certainly lots of ideas in it. Before I answer jim's mail, I'd like to tell a little story. I thought about it when I saw brent's anchor winch. My point is not to laugh about it (it is functional, cheap and proven) but to put things in perspective when you have bigger boats. This is very much for you alex as a 40 footer is quite big. We anchored 100 meters from a small reef, in a place with lots of small reefs, it was blowing quite hard and I must say I didn't sleep much the first night because I was afraid we would derive and get on one of the reefs. The situation presented no real danger for the crew but it did for the boat. We used 2 anchors. anchor one 100 Kg + 7-8m 3/4chain and rope anchor another 3 tooth anchor I build with 3 scrap bolts from the boat construction +/- 35Kg + chain.. everything went fine but taking those anchors from the bottom (25 m) was not all that much fun. I couldn't stop myself of smilling when I saw brent's anchor winch. Brent what weight do you use for your anchor? you system certainly works fine but I am not used to small boats. what if you want to use 2 or 3 or 4 anchors. how do you get them out? Now I'd like to answer jim. I will not answer all questions because it would quickly become unredeable. May be someone has an idea on how to organize this discussion. On Friday 14 March 2003 04:55, Jim Phillips wrote: > WETTED SURFACE AREA > In the case of a cargo ship, ... the > underwater profile resembles a rectangular box with a > crude pointy end and allows efficient use of space for > cargo. hmmm, I used to think the same but you are wrong, most cargoships have very nice underwater profiles. Where is the answer to my question? It all started with hull resistance (I meant mechanical restance). Anyhow I agree on what you wrote. > STEEL / ALUMINIUM > As far as the steel/aluminium question goes, that has > been extensively discussed elsewhere. It comes down > to the maths of whether you want your cat to sail more > than 5 knots or not. If you do, well, the steel is > too heavy. Even if this has been discussed elsewhere I'd like to discuss it too. I'd like to convince you that steel is better but what I am really looking for is to be convinces that aluminium is better. Now building in aluminium saves weight, according to certain sources, the saving is something like 25%. For some boat shape, doubling the boat weight doesn't half the speed, then one could make the boat with a slightly wider beam. So are all the problems associated with aluminium worth taking for the 0.5 to 1 knot diffrence between my steel boat and your aluminium boat? Alex named Osram VII, yest it's a very nice boat but count the hours. I have the whole Osram VII in a single pdf if someone wants it. > YOUR PLAN > Sounds like you have some very interesting, > labour-saving ideas. > However, I don't quite understand the bit about the > four frames. Why does the deck need a frame? Wether you build a frame first or when the hull is up, the deck always have a frame. You might call it webbing (longitudinal and transvers support for the deck) but I call it frame because it is constructed first. The advantage of constructing 2 frames per hull are: - They will have exactly the same shape if you want to. - The frames are constructed on the floor, which is much easier than in the air. - The frame will give your side plates the right shape without spending hours mesuring in the air (which is very error prone) I also think hulls should be build upside down when the top of the hull is a straight ligne. having an 18 meters hull (the under water body in a shallow draft hull) suspended in the air is not all that difficult as the weight is not more than 1.5T. Is it possible to attach drawing to our mails? > When do you plan to start construction? 2 years +/- 2 years. But it's all about feeling ready with the construction plan (and the money of course). Had I wanted a mono hull, I'd buy a Swain plan and start this summer. > BOW OVERHANG I won't repeat your text here, those who need it might look in the archive. a 16' cat has nothing to do with an 18m one when it comes to stability period. Now your concern about pitch polling is right but I think you fix the problem in the worst way. When the bow of your ship is in the air, the extra weight will induce an extra rotating moment. That is you will pitch even more and worse much faster and much more often. I think the way to go is give more boyancy to you bow and accept loosing 0.25 knot by not having a needle shaped ship. you could also do that by making the boyancy of your stern higher without the overhang. This is all about balance so let's take an example: You and I build 2 boats that are similar except the bow. I remove half the height of the bow on the 3 - 4 first meters of the bow you add 1-2 meters extra overhand. let's compare weight (I take steel, reduce by whatever factor you feel right for aluminium). The sides being vertical, the weight gaine is from the side plates only. say I gain 8 square meters at 3 mm thickness. That's - 200Kg. The extra overhang you hadd might be around 75 Kg. Now you have 275 extra Kg with a lever of 5-10 meters trying to pitch your hull. and you have 2 of those. Mechanically the boats will be diffrent. The boat with overhang being less rigid. I do agree with you though. Good boyancy in the bow is very important and in my examples I loose boyancy by removing part of the hull at the bow.For the same length of hull (and mechanical strength apart) you get a hull with more boyancy but a greater tendency to pitch and I get a hull with lower boyancy but less likely to pitch. What about making the bow smaller but change the (over water line) hull shape to give more boyancy? and still having a very simple construction? > Anyway, a > bow overhang means the boat will rise up as it > collides with an object, whereas a plumb bow will just > collapse inwards. Right and right but it means you collide with something that is in the air. I don't say it never happends because I saw an indonesian boat collide with an other at 90 degrees angle. the keel of the colliding boat got on the deck of the other boat. then it just sleeped back in the water. Those boats are extreme because there bow have an extreme overhang. and they also pitch like hell (even the doubled ended ones) and you don't need big waves for that. > Additionally, the space inside the overhang can be > closed off and used as a collision bulkhead in the > remote case that it is holed in this area. For me a overhang is always in the air, so the hole would be in the air too. Even if the bow is sometimes under water not much water would get in. now I wouldn't mind having a bulkhead but : - how do you build a bulkhead in such a narrow area? - the bulkhead has to be flexible (seems that lot of people think the more rigid the better as they think strength bulkhead and watertightness bulkhead are buil in the same way). > LENGTH : BEAM RATIO it seems to me we more or less agree on the dimentions of the hull. You asked if I needed a caravan or a racer. Without any doubt a caravan. But I'd like it to go fast. Some statistics are always intressting, I gathered this from the internet and other sources so it might not be right but it's still a start point. Mediteranean yachts sail an average of 3 and a half days per year. (They are build accordingly). World cruising boats sail less than 10% of the time. How much of that time is at high seas would be intressting to know. 1 of 12 boats cruising close to reefs (that's were all want to sail I think) stay put on the reef for ever and serves as very nice housing for the local fish. So it seems that sailling is not the prevalent activity on a boat even world cruising. So the boat is a caravan 90% of the time. Do you want your house to be confortable? Where do you put the stuff you buy to locals. where do you put the beach catamaran you have so much fun with? where do you put the bikes that are so practical when you get on land? where .... A good boat is a one where one sleeps good and the sailor can gets his energy back. Go to any 'super designed' mono yacht site and have a look at the pictures. The boat is often angles 40 degrees on the pictures but the beds are hopelessly flat and without any board to keep you in them. Worse they are double beds. I'd like to see how they sleep in those when the boat is heeling. You must be able to run in a boat without hurting yourself. The engine must be confined to an area sealed from the living area and that is also for the diesel tanks. etc ... this how I calculate the beam and from there the length of the hull. sailing around in a small boat is fine but at shore you find yourself living in a floating tin can. > As far as rigging, engines etc, I'll paste in a > previous email here. Some of these ideas are still > evolving. Please give feedback - abusive, laughingly > critical or whatever. I'll make myself the devils advocate and try to give your ideas a bad time. > 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be > decked with planks to allow "percolation" of waves > during rough seas. I really wonder were you are going to sail to get such bad conditions. the percolating is a good idea but where are you going to find the waves that jump over your 2 meters high hull and crash 5 meters in your boat? The wing deck gives you a _lot_ of extra boyancy. I see the following problems with an habitable wingdeck: - Weight - Aerodynamic - The cat can't be separated in two hull for transport Not having one: - Boyancy - Habitability - Slightly more complicated controls as they must be doubled - Safety of going on a slick deck at night from one steering position to the other, get hit by a bird or a flying fish and you are history. > 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. > Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. If I understand you right , the wing deck is just there to keep the hull apart. If they have a clearance of 1.2m then the height of the overwater hull would also be 1.2. If you need a clearance of 1.9m for you to live and have a minimum of 20 centimeters bellow the floor, making the hull 2.1 meters hight -1.2m water clearance of the wingdeck that's 0.9 meters draft. 1 of 3 thing is right choose: - you get your 1.2-1.5m clearance by design (with a normal draft) - you have 0.9m draft and I seriously propose reconsidering your design - you are going to have less than 1.9m head clearance in your huls and I will either applaude if you learn to live like arabs on the floor (this is done in a lot of indonesian boats where the head clearance is sometimes +/- 1.3 m you sit in the cabine, as you can't stand) or laugh at you if you live like a bend_in_the_middle european. > I don't > understand why cats always have the wing deck below > the level of the outer decks. Is it just a > psychological safety issue to feel surrounded by the > topsides of the hulls, or is there a structural > reason? ENORMOUS structural diffrence. I think 1m wing deck clearance is enough, but it all dependends on how wide your cat is. the wider the cat the higher the wingdeck. If you met the waves at 90° then the hulls keep the wingdeck at constant hight. if you meet the waves at 0° then the top of the wave might touch you wingdeck. so high wing deck clerance is needed when you have high and very chopy sea and you meet it at 0°. I don't think this happends often. > 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull > sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and > reefing lines. Socialising in port, the main function > of any cockpit, will be on the central deck. Is the cockpit to be sealed from the elements or open? Are you going to double all the sheets, halyard... to have control in each hull? > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using > frameless technique. Had you choosen steel, you could cut your plates yourself. Be sure to check the discutions about the NCcut plates. Is it worth it? I think you and I have the same the same philosophy, we want something that is right by design. I also think that NCcut plates are wrong by design. The right design doesn't need machinery. That's where Swain design is best IMO. > If necessary, bulkheads go in > afterwards? If your boat isn't unsinkable, bulkheads are a must. I'll want to have unsikable with bulkhead. > 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve > flotation. Fairly V-ed, knife-shaped bow. See Above > 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. That minimizes only half of the pitching, that is backwards. too flat stern and you acentuate the pitching forward. The good thing is that you can always weld on some extra boyancy tank in the bow if it doesn't work as you want. not high tech design but cheap and effective. I wouldn't hesitate a second to make a 'beautifull unstable boat' an 'ugly stable boat'. > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular > below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, > off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it > lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and > bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet > surface area, construction time and cost (less > welding). what draft do you want to have? semi circular is going to make you boat deeper than more flatish shapes > 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than > 3', preferably 2'. Purpose is for beaching, not > leeway reduction. You loose me here. Leeway reduction is best done with side board in a catamaran they are as long as you want and add nil when retracted (I also belive they should retract automaticaly). So what would your draft be without your keel and skeg. What would it be with them? Leave Keel and skegs to monohulks which need them and instead weld an extra 6 mm plate at the bottom of hull to slide on. > 12. Integral water tanks in the mini keels. > 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or > two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings > - like an external centreboard. I don't want the > hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the > performance of the lee board and the convenience of > minimal draft and being able to run aground. Hallelouia. > 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom > can actually be "inboard" by using a sugar scoop stern > to increase waterline length and provide steep > boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so > beyond sugar scoop to enable installation of a trim > tab on each rudder. Hmm I'd like to see a drawing of your inboard rudder. I think what you describe comes close to what I wrote above about the boat which had nice boarding possibility. What about having the rudders fixed on the beam between the hulls, it won't be at the end of the boat thus loosing some eficiency. > 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering > thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that > will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering backed up > by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab > via Morse control. OK. but I am more on the hydraulic steering myself, with a direct backup in the form of a tiller. > 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We > detest using the engine unless on a delivery. Ideally > a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of > skeg. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Brent had a very nice description of his adventures with an outboard. A 15m+ cat is a ship not a canot. If you think you can do without the extra safety an engine gives you, then go for the outboard otherwise a more 'definitive' solution is needed. Now marin engines are expensive, too expensive for what they are. I think there are other solutions like truck and car engines. I'll gladely discuss this. The most important point with engines (except the engines themselves) is where they are placed? how do you do maintenance on them? and if you have a wife and/or kids how do you COMPLETELY separate it from the living quarter? > 17. Rig to > be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for > wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both > cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is > already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is > sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to > an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all > the normal rigging there is less potential for > failure. The rig will be biplane because it keeps the > centre of effort lower than having one central mast. > And structurally it makes more sense to have a > keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on > the wing deck. Please blow this logic down in flames. I'll counter backwards. The one point where I agree with you is about masts being stepped in the hull instead of the middle of the wingdeck. I disagree with the rest. Stayed masts are proven, carbon masts are not and I repeat it again they are not, do not give me one or two example I can give you millions of stayed masts examples. What is the price of a 19m carbon mast? 17 meters above deck plus 2 for the stepping. Multiply by 2 with since you'll have two masts. The staying of a mast doesn't cost that much on a boat you build yourself. How do you reduce the sail area easily? Do you think it's easy to handle double sail, sheets and halyard (multiplied by 2 sterring positions). My idea for the rig is even less tested than yours but I think it's simple, cheaper and easier to handle. > 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them > hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise > disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be > oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make > it free standing). Track = failure if you don't buy real good stuff, read expensive. What are the other guys in the list using and what problems did they encounter? I'll keep you sweaty a bit more by telling you I think there is a solution. > 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing > deck and hulls. I don't know what a bimi is, could you explain? > Solar panels to go on top Hmm, please tell me you are not going to have an internet connection on your boat ;-) Save the money from the solar panel and buy a mini generator (diesel). I knwo I am going to be flammed but think about it seriously and when you are ready we can discuss all the cases where diesel generator is better than a silly 15 WH solar panel. > So what's the point of building a boat if you are not > going to sail it? The point is building the boat. I can be on it when other sail it. > Hey, Nadim, I have an idea! Why > don't you build my cat and then I will come to Sweden > and pick it up? We can both do what we prefer to do. :) As I wrote at the top of this mail, I think we should divide the discussion in sections and take a section at a time. If you want, we can seriously discuss your boat point by point and then mine or we could take each point (material, share, construction, tooling, ....) and discuss both boats at the same time. Let me know how you want to go on. Nadim. 1433 From: nadim Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: Re: New member On Friday 14 March 2003 17:41, nelstomlinson wrote: > If you want to see some long, skinny hulls made by a similar method, > Google on ``tortured ply''. That should turn up some pictures of > canoes and catamarans made by cutting darts out of plywood. It might > be easier to do what they show using metal than the thin plywood they > worked with. Thanks, I'll have a look. Alex send a link to Lundström's web site. The intressting page is: http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html I heard a story about 2 guys drifting 4 month an a reversed cat. Does any one have a link? For a good laugh try: http://www.paritetboat.com/ellips.shtml Nadim. 1434 From: Michael Casling Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 1:27am Subject: Re: Origami catamaran hulls The only Swain hull I have seen is a 40 footer. Personally I do not think the hard chine is a detriment in any way. Any deep hull will have a hard chine down the middle which poses no problem. The water enters the leading edge of the Swain hard chine very gently. If we compare it to a race boat then it will be slower but for a cruiser it is fine and probably quicker than the full keel cruisers. Brent has mentioned more than once about the tracking ability of the boats. A boat that steers straight will be quicker than one that does not. On the cover of Pacific Yachting January 2003 is a lovely looking slab sided hard chine boat. Anyone know what it is? Michael Casling Kelowna BC 1435 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 4:22am Subject: Re: Origami catamaran hulls I noticed the other day that the boat on the yahoo origami cover page looked familiar. Then I realized it was because it was the photo I took of Dale Deforest's 36' boat! I can testify that the boat tracked like it was on rails. In fact it took real effort on the tiller to move it off the track! The boat is cutter rigged and we were flying both the working jib and staysail with a full main. The boat seemed to move very well. We had to tack back and forth up the bay to return as the wind blowing right down the bay. I noticed the boat was not as close winded as the other fiberglass boats of similar size around us. Our speed through the water was about the same, but we fell a little short of the other boats at each tack. We weren't of course trying to race, or trimming the sails closely. Considering the displacement of Dales boat and how spacious it is down below I would have been amazed if it wasn't slower to some degree. Gary H. Lucas 1436 From: sharadsharma@s... Date: Sat Mar 15, 2003 5:14pm Subject: Osram VII Nadim's cat Dear Nadim Kindly email me the pdf File I would like to look at the drawings Email it to sharadsharma@s... 1437 Spam 1438 From: Alex Christie Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:56pm Subject: origami cat I'm posting this for James Floyd, as had some bounce trouble: Hello Alex, I get a Bouncing message and I cannot post so if you could forward this to the group I would appreciate it. I have posted a few pics of my origami cat model. It is a 1 inch to 1 foot scale model. 46 inches long and 24 inches wide. Steven Dittmore helped me with the weight calculations and the guided me on the hull shape. Basically, I just kept fooling with it until I got the beam width on the waterline to just below 4 ft. It has a draft of about 3.5 ft. It is very fine at the bow and fattens out quite a bit on the stern. The displacement (loaded) will be about 14,000 pounds. The model in the water has the proper amount of weight (in proportion) to show how it would actually sit in the water. From what I've learned, I don't see many problems with an Origami cat. The beams connecting the amas concern me, because of the distortion you would get from the bulkheads where they connect. If any of you want to contact me my e-mail is jamesfloyd@u... thanks, James Floyd 1439 From: richytill Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 7:54pm Subject: masts A picture has been posted of a stainless pipe mast on a 36'. Can anyone say what the diameter of that mast might be? It appeared to be about 5.5" OD (a guess). That would wheigh around 7.7 lbs per foot in schd. 10--seems heavy-ish at 365lbs+/- for the whole pole. A rigger here claims he can transform the performance the boat by using a lighter mast. Any feedback appreciated. Thanks, rt, Sechelt 1440 From: nadim Date: Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:25pm Subject: Re: origami cat On Tuesday 18 March 2003 18:56, Alex Christie wrote: > From what I've learned, I don't see many problems with an > Origami cat. The beams connecting the amas concern me, because of > the distortion you would get from the bulkheads where they connect. I sure would like to see those picture and any of the material you have. I'd like to give a comment or two about your idea/design: - beams are and easy solution but they hardly provide the same structural resistance of a wingdeck, or is you design without habitable wingdeck? - 3-4 ft draft would make me (this is about your cat but if I was to build one of the same design) refuse to build the cat. it's simply too deep. 3-4 ft and you can say bye to beeching the cat. Does your design include a keel? Would you consider having a greater beam to lower your draft? That might (or might not) lower the wetted surface too. you write :"The displacement (loaded) will be about 14,000 pounds". Could you please be more precise about what loaded is? How thick would the hull be? is the thickness the same all over the hull? As you can see I am very curious about your design ;-) Nadim. 1441 Spam 1442 From: mat_man22 Date: Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:13am Subject: Re: plans Wm. Atkins 32 foot wood ketches "ERIC" and "Thistle", modified Colin Archer design, that was modified for fiberglass by Crealock to become Westsail 32. see: http://www.tlcs.com/dms/kendall/whist1.html MoToR BoatinG plans for "Thistle": http://www.tlcs.com/dms/kendall/thistle188.html 1443 From: sae140 Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:16pm Subject: Couple of questions I discovered your website recently whilst searching for information on VW Rabbit installations, and I'm finding the Origami technique fascinating. I've started converting past posts into plain text format, principally for my own use, but if any wants a copy they'd be welcome to it. A plea on behalf of lunatic keyboard masochists like myself and those with restricted bandwidth - could members on this site please trim their posts ?? To give you an example of how wasteful it is to wade through miles of text only to read a post which eventually says "yes, I agree", take a look at posts 943 to 972. An HTML file of these posts is almost 1Mb in size, whereas when converted to text this file becomes 35Kb - that's 3.5% of the original. 96.5% of this stuff is completely redundant. To be sure HTML does have an overhead, but the lion's share of the problem lies with untrimmed posts. On to boating matters .... A couple of questions: the build sequence photographs show construction to the half-shell stage, and then jump to the fitting of the transom, without showing the technique used for gluing the two half-shells together. Is this a straightforward procedure in practice - say by using a couple of tacks at the centre-line then pulling the halves together with tackle ? And with a fair few blocks supporting ? Presumably the hull has to stay upright at this stage to keep the hull from distorting ? I'm just mindful of how heavy the half shells are, and what an awkward shape they will be to manipulate with basic equipment. Having been in love with Allen Farrell's China Cloud for some time, it was good to see pictures of Evan Shaler's junk. Does anyone know whether Evan retained plans or sufficient information to make another ? I'd love to buy a copy of the paperwork and make a China Cloud copy myself. I've emailed him, but no reply so far. If anyone's in contact with Evan, perhaps you'd mention this post to him ? Thanks. Lastly - is anyone building an Origami boat in the UK or anywhere in mainland western Europe ? Regards Colin Powell [Boston, UK] 1444 From: Alex Christie Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: Couple of questions You're right -- the section of the building sequence showing the actual pulling together of the two half-hulls is missing! Funny that I didn't notice that before. I glance at the photo in question every day on the cover of Brent's book, too. I'll see if I can get ahold of a scanner to zap the cover shot for you and post to the files. In the meantime, here is a short description: The technique for pulling the two halves together is pretty much as you guessed. You start not at the extreme point of the bow, but further back along the centreline, near the bottom of the bow curve. Then you work your way along aft tack-welding, winching the two halves together as you go, until you reach the transom. Brent's photo shows a good chain come-along in use for this process. The bow area is pulled together after. Because the hull halves are stress-skin objects with a welded-on pipe bulwark, plus at least four-longitudinals inside, they are quite stiff. There are no special supports needed, though Brent's photo shows some wood laid under the hull to allow the individual sides to slide together. Evan's junk boat is similar to Farrell's China Cloud, and definitely inspired by it in terms of faithful adherence dimensions, but the use of steel for the hull does change the nature of the boat. Allen's boat was conceived of as a light vessel that would seemingly skim over the water like a leaf (obviously still a displacement hull, but this was in any case the spirit that Farrell was after). I think it was ballasted with rocks, and depended on a very full mid-body that gave a lot of secondary stability. Evan's boat is quite a different animal, in that regard, with lead ballast, and it does appear to sit lower in the water. It would have different sailing behaviour than Farrell's hull, of course, though I'm sure it's fine. I've been interested in the idea myself for doing a hull like that, but my initial enthusiasm has been tempered by caution after thinking about some of the problems and challenges posited by designing such a hull. It's not that I've given up on the idea, but I'd like to approach its design methodically and rationally. I think Evan learned a lot of things from doing his boat that would make him do it differently on another, and he is well worth listening to in this regard. For instance, he ended up doing a flat or near-flat bottom on this boat, but I think I recall him saying that next time he'd do it with a vee, as per Brent's boats. The other thing he told me is that he'd be leery of building another one at this time as it is such an experimental model which has not been proven with extensive sea- time (Farrell also did not design his boat for offshore use, it may be interesting to point out). He's got a point, too; It is one thing to do a hull for yourself, but when someone else wants to do the same hull, then you've got a burden of responsibility for their safety. The best education in this is I'd suggest is to build a small conventional origami hull, and take what you've learned from this to apply to a junk hull. Although Tom Colvin's junks have completely different building techniques, they are steel for the most part, and would be a good departure point in terms of general hull shape. The challenge is getting a look at Colvin's hull sections, a nearly impossible task without buying a set of plans because he is so secretive about what's below the waterline. The origami technique could be used to model a hull with similar hydrostatics and behaviour, and you'd have a greater chance of success. I'm going to building a 40 footer to Brent's design, but if I start the junk experiment, I'd be glad to collaborate and share information with anyone interested in doing the same. Alex Christie 1445 From: sae140 Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 6:59pm Subject: more home-made welders Ok - enough lurking - time to make a contribution .... A few more links for home-made engine-driven welders: http://www.geocities.com/damonfg/obweld.html http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/gaswelder.html http://www.trailhed.com/welding.html http://mywebpages.comcast.net/t.molnar/Obwelder1.htm The principle behind these designs is that the voltage regulators are bypassed so that the alternator's output voltage will vary in proportion to the engine's r.p.m. when in welder mode. Higher voltage will result in a higher electrode current. You'll need to switch the regulator back into circuit for charging batteries of course. Don't dismiss the relatively low current welder designs as being completely useless, as 2 such alternators in parallel will provide quite enough grunt - alternatively try sourcing a *really* big 200A job. Also - here's a link for a portable generator (also possible convertion into a portable welder ?) 'cause how else are you going to start your engine if all your batteries are flat .... (it happens ..): http://www.skennedy44.freeserve.co.uk/generator.html I've got a more professional design somewhere - I'll try and hunt it down. BTW - prop size & pitch/ shaft speed/ engine sbhp tables can be found in Nigel Warren's 'Marine Conversions', if anyone needs. Consider: make your shaft/ cutlass bearing/ prop all out of mild steel, then you really don't need to install zincs (although you might want to as belt and braces). I know of a boat that's been in the water for 22 years (much of this in the tropics) with this config - and no problems. Regards Colin 1446 From: Edward Stone Date: Sun Mar 23, 2003 7:15pm Subject: Re: Couple of questions Hi Colin, Alex, I am building a 36' Brent Swain origami boat in the UK midlands. Feel free to contact me. Regards, Ted 1447 From: parallel_64 Date: Wed Mar 26, 2003 0:09am Subject: From Vancouver to Nanaimo Hello -- Just finished reading the entire archive -- amazing ideas and information. Thanks to you all; as an inexperienced sailor and builder, I learned a LOT. Thanks Alex for your good work in running the group. I've never joined an internet group before, but can't help myself on this one . . . I'm sold on Brent Swain boats, and on the philosophy behind them! A couple of weeks ago cashed in some Alaska Airlines mileage to make a cheap trip to Mazatlan to check out Nomadic, thinking we might buy it. It's a great boat for sure, with lots of gear, but at 31 feet we decided it's too small for us, and so will be looking to build/buy a 36 footer. I think Mark (Nomadic's owner) is heading to Costa Rica right now. In April I may be traveling to Vancouver BC for work. I hope to take a quick drive to Nanaimo to look at the 36' hull for sale there (Joe Leibenberg's and now Mat Janigan's). From what I know Evan pulled it together a couple of years ago. ANyone know why this hull has gone through 3 owners already?? Any info or comments on this particluar boat would be most welcome, and so would locations of other Swain boats I might pass by on the way from Vancouver to Van I. Joe Easley, we should get together, as I see you're from Anchorage, too. Nomadic's owner lives in Eagle River. Cheers -- John DOyle / Anchorage,Alaska 1448 From: fletchberry Date: Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:45am Subject: Marinas Hi everyone, I'm looking for feedback on marinas on Vancouver Island for a liveaboard situation. My preference is the Courtenay/Comox area but can go as far as Parksville to the south or Campbell River to the north. Any information or experiences would be very much appreciated. Regards Matthew Drabbe 1449 From: Alex and Kim Christie Date: Wed Mar 26, 2003 6:12am Subject: Re: Marinas Re: Liveaboard marinas I only know about the Comox government wharf from experience. The latest I've heard is that they have instituted an additional fee for liveaboards since we lived there aboard our boat 6 years ago. However, as far as I know, they don't turn potential liveaboards away like they tried to do in Victoria when we lived there. It seems that the further north you go, the friendlier marinas are, but there are always exceptions. If you have a twin keeler there are excellent drying bays in front of Comox which are free. I don't know whether the municipal Marina (near to the federal wharf) at Comox allows liveaboards, but none of the boats there look like liveaboards, besides being mostly smaller pleasure boats. Alex 1454 From: desormeauxmike Date: Thu Mar 27, 2003 7:06pm Subject: Sail Plan, anchor system First time poster, planning on building a 31' Swain twin keeler, cutter rig. I have read and re-read this site and have a few questions about Brent's designs. This is a great site and have learned a lot and would appreciate some guidance on sail plans and rigs and anchor systems for Brent's boats. 1) I noticed the "Kerrera" is cutter rig with a bowsprit. When I purchase design will it include options for sail plans. 2) The photos of Kobella show her with one of Brent's winches forward of the cabin with what seems to be all chain rode. Is this right? Thanks 1455 From: mark_schlichting11 Date: Fri Mar 28, 2003 6:32am Subject: Re: Sail Plan, anchor system Not many Brent boats have a bowsprit, the plans don't include one so the sailplan (which is pretty basic) does not make provisions for sails to suit it. Kobella's ground tackle if almost identical to ours and consists of nylon anchor rode and galvanized chain - the drum is too small for all chain and it would be heavy up on deck. We have 250' of 5/8" gold braid nylon with 66' or 3/8" chain. Brent uses wire rope instead of nylon rode because it doesn't chaff and is strong, but I suspect it must be a little cumbersome to work with and would tend to coil when not under tension. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC 456 From: sae140 Date: Sat Mar 29, 2003 8:19pm Subject: Nuthin' Wong Does anyone have more details about the junk Nuthin' Wong ? I was wondering if she's a 40 footer ? Looks a big boat, with beautiful lines. Regards Colin 1458 From: yvesmariedetanton Date: Sun Mar 30, 2003 8:37pm Subject: Twin Keelers I simply want to add. For the asking, I'll send an article about twin keelers to the persons interested. Along with information about the one alrady built. 1459 From: Edward Stone Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:09am Subject: Re: Twin Keelers Yves Marie, I am very interested in your information about twin keelers and would appreciate it if you could send it. Regards, Ted 1460 From: parallel_64 Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:28am Subject: Re: Twin Keelers Hello Yves -- Thank you for your offer of an article about twin keelers. I would very much like to read it. Maybe there's a way you could share it with the entire group; I'm sure others would appreciate it as well, and it might make things easier for you. Cheers -- John Doyle 1461 From: Glen Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 6:31am Subject: placement of keel My question is for those people who have 40 foot plans, or are building the 40 foot Brent Swain. I am pouring over my plans in regards to the correct placement for the keels, whether they be single or twin. If I understand my plans correctly, the leading edge of the keel, where it meets the hull, is directly under the mast. The distance from what would be center of the mast, to the bow/stemhead is 15 feet 8 inches. If I transfer this measurement of 15' 8" to the hull plate, this would mean that the keel, where it meets the hull at the leading edge, would be 7 3/4 inches behind the vertical measurement of where the forward cut in the hull is. So ie: where you are cutting the plate to be pulled together. If you were looking at the V notch pointing towards the bow, the leading edge of where the keel meets the hull would be 7 3/4 inches behind the tip of this notch. I understand in the twin keel version, they are canted 90 degrees from the hull and 2' 10 1/2 " from the welded point at midship. I want to make sure I understand this properly. Does this make sense or am I too tired????? 1462 From: nelstomlinson Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 5:08pm Subject: Re: Twin Keelers Hello, Yves, I, too, would be interested in your twin keel article, and the information. I suspect that you'll see a lot of interest in your kind offer, and a bit of bother. You might want to consider putting the article in the ``photos'' section of this group. Since access to that seems to be limited to registered members of the group, I think that would be equivalent to your offer. It probably wouldn't trigger any complaints from the copyright holder, if that's someone other than you. Anyway, thanks for your kind offer. I'll look forward to seeing your information. Sincerely, Nels 1463 From: evanmoonjunk Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 8:59pm Subject: Re: Nuthin' Wong Hi Colin, Brent was involved in building this boat many years ago. I saw it during construction and again when it was sailing. I was aboard a few times but that was a long time a go and and don't remeber much about it. I think it was 47' on deck. Several years ago I had an email from the owner but have not heard any thing since..Evan 1464 From: Jim Phillips Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 10:34pm Subject: Re: Re: Nuthin' Wong Nuthin Wong was anchored in the lagoon at St Maarten in May 2000. The owner was looking for crew and was talking about heading west to Cuba, north to Canada or across to the UK. Could be anywhere now. But why not ask him where he is: chinesejunk@h... Jim. 1465 From: Alex and Kim Christie Date: Mon Mar 31, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: Re: Twin Keelers Hi Yves, Feel free to put the article in the Files section if you like. Since many of the origami boats are twin keelers, this would be very pertinent to our discussion. Alex Christie 1467 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Tue Apr 1, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo Hello John. Could you give me some more details in regards to Nomadic? I may of missed a post on this but I am curious as to dollars, conditions any pics and such. Thank you. 1468 From: sae140 Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 0:04am Subject: from model to full-size ? So far so good .... Have been playing at converting a 32 ft Wylo II to Origami today .... Made a 1/12th half-model, covered this with strips of thick paper and several miles of sellotape, then lifted off the resulting 'orange peel' and cut out the chine darts as recommended. Then a couple of half-shells were worked-up using copydex glue and paper-card liberated from a filing cabinet. The resulting hull was very pleasing, and the procedure was a lot easier than I'd expected. Only one small snag - the resulting chine is some 55% of LOD, compared with the sample model pattern's 39% - but I can live with that. Only one question remains - how do I now translate the 1/12th model pattern to full size, bearing in mind the need to maintain accuracy ? Regards Colin BTW - thanks for the feedback re: Nuthin Wong. 1469 From: John Doyle Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 0:30am Subject: RE: Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo Hello rbzitter -- There's a good write-up on Nomadic on its broker's website; it gives a lot of details, including photos: www.mazmarine.com. The boat itself is in great shape, and if it were the right size (larger) I'm sure we would have purchased it. The vessel was out of the water for new bottom paint and zincs when I arrived in Mazatlan (taken down to steel, sandblasted, etc.). Standing rigging is new, sails are almost new, the simple interior is in great shape (mahogony with teak trim), equipment and interior are likewise, it has incredible amounts of tools, spare parts, etc., etc., etc. Brent Swain apparently built the boat for a friend who lived in San Francisco; the current owner purchased it when it had less than 20 hours on the Yanmar engine, which now has about 650 hours on it and runs perfectly (not even a smell of diesel when you open the engine cover; no leaks, etc.). The boat has never been north of SF Bay, and has been in Mazatlan for about five years. It's been well taken care of -- a tough maintenance schedule has been followed (including starting the engine, and running all systems on a regular basis when the owner is away). You would have to pay almost triple the amount asked to fit the boat as it sits today. I had a surveyor look at Nomadic. He lives on a steel boat that he constructed himself (not a Swain hull). As I don't know him, and as he has a relationship with the broker, I can't vouch completely for his biases. But the boat's condition speaks for itself, I think. As far as I know, before I visited Mazatlan Mark Reiss, the boat's owner, was planning to take the boat south to Costa Rica. Whether or not he was taking it off the market was unclear to me, but you could call his broker (Ray Watson and Jeannette Sarrasin) in Mazatlan and learn more quite easily. They can be contacted on: tele +52 (669) 916-50-15; email Mazmarine@a...). Cheers -- John 1470 From: Alex and Kim Christie Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 8:38am Subject: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull Ok, I don't actually know what the rule of thumb is for how long those darts extend forward! I was hoping we could all put our heads together for Colin and work up the rule of thumb. Part of it may be determined by the behaviour of the steel, and what it lets you get away with in terms of torturing it. Perhaps the other part has to do with the conic projection in the bow sections, and where that cone ends, making that point being the forwardmost part of the dart. If anyone has some ideas on this please share! Alex 1471 From: Gord Schnell Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 5:39pm Subject: Re: placement of keel I'm unclear on your description. A drawing would help to understand your question. Gord 1472 From: nelstomlinson Date: Wed Apr 2, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull On a related subject, I've been trying to play around with the little paper cut-out hull which is in the files section. It works well enough that I can understand the basic idea, but that's not working very well. The main problem seems to be line width: there's so much slop in the drawing (after I've cut it out, at least!) that my two centerlines are never quite straight after pulling the darts together. That makes for a pretty funky aft half for most of the models. I'd like to be able to convince myself that I can really do this on a big scale. One thing I'd like to do, in aid of that, is to get a thin, 4x8 sheet of masonite and make a one sheet dinghy using this method. It wouldn't be usable as a dinghy, but it would be cheap, and line width won't matter quite so much on that scale. Could someone post a table of offsets for lofting that little paper hull half, please? Thanks, Nels 1473 From: mat_man22 Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull > Could someone post a table of offsets for lofting that little paper > hull half, please? Hi Nels Alex posted this at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Smallboats/message/4457 "For quite some time I've had the designer's permission to post a digital copy of the pattern for the dinghy on the Origamiboat yahoo group site, but haven't gotten around to it yet, so this will prompt me to go on up to the school and scan the thing once and for all and do it!" I hope he gets around to this. Mat 1475 From: nelstomlinson Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 6:36pm Subject: Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull Is he talking about the gif of the cutout which he's posted at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/files/A n%20Origamiboat%20model%20pattern ? Or is he talking about measurements which I could scale up? Alex? By the way, in Brent's book, the dinghy plan seems to be something very different than the cutout, which is also there. I can't give page numbers, since I don't have the book with me. As I recall, what the book calls the dinghy plan has the tabs in the top rather than the bottom of the halves. I suspect that by trial and error I could get something that worked at small scale, but then any errors in measurement would get scaled up too. I was hoping for a set of measurements which I could scale. If someone has built one of those dinghies, and saved patterns, maybe he could measure them and post some working numbers? It seems to me that the tricky part about all this is getting the center-line curve to lie in a single plane. My difficulty always seems to be that there is a discontinuity where the two tabs come together. Since I cut the mating edges of the tabs to the same length, the two corners meet (the mating edge to center line corners), but there is an angle in the centerline where they meet which shouldn't be there. I think that means that the angle of the mating edges is slightly wrong. I guess what I could do would be to cut out the hull halves, leaving several inches of scrap on each mating edge, then pull togther and align so that the centerline describes a single plane, then cut the mating edges where they overlap. Glossary: I'm using: to mean: mating edge One of the edges on a tab, which joins to the matching edge of the other tab, all on the same side. Both edges are roughly perpendicular to the centerline. centerline The edge of a hull half which joins to the other hull half. The centerline of the whole boat, where the two hull halves join together, must describe a plane, so each centerline must also. 1476 From: nadim Date: Fri Apr 4, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Re: Re: rule of thumb for length of longitudinal darts on Colin's hull > I suspect that by trial and error I could get something that worked at > small scale, but then any errors in measurement would get scaled up > too. They will indeed. There is only one other way to find out (except trial-error). Model the hull in a 3D program and unwrap it. I guess it is possible to do the calculation by hand but it is not worth it. A good friens has such a program I'll give it a try. Otherwise there is such a program made by Lundström (in Sweden) and certainly many other ones. A few weeks ago there was a discussion about 3D modeling, maybe one those members could help you. Nadim. 1477 From: sae140 Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 8:30am Subject: Re: from model to full-size ? Nels recently wrote: "On a related subject, I've been trying to play around with the little paper cut-out hull which is in the files section. It works well enough that I can understand the basic idea, but that's not working very well." "I'd like to be able to convince myself that I can really do this on a big scale." I sympathise - 'cause that's been my experience too: the small resolution .gif graphic in the files section is ideal for demonstrating the basic principles of Origami boat-building, but of course is inadequate for the purposes of building an accurate scale model. One simple way of building-up confidence in this system is to take an Origami layout from an existing hull - perhaps a toy boat hull, or even from a barrel (!) - and then to re-constitute this hull shape from the layout obtained. So just in case anyone is considering doing this - here is how I approached the task, although there must be several ways of achieving the same result ... (If you already have a hull handy, you might want to skip the first part) Converting a hull to Origami. A set of 1/12th scale sections were made from the thinnest plywood in the shed, and a couple of pieces of 1" x 1" nailed to either side of their lower edges so they would stand upright on a length of plank used as a baseplate. By holding these in place with chunks of scrap steel, the hull lines were faired using a 3 ft length of thin wavy plastic as a batten. This was a tedious operation, but eventually each section was glued down into it's correct position on the base plate. Dressmaker's pins were inserted firmly into the ply sections at the chine points, and the spaces between each section were filled with crumpled-up wire-netting before applying builder's plaster. When semi-hard, the plaster was skimmed flat between the pins, and exactly level with each plywood section. When fully dry, the line of the first chine was marked in ink, and all pins removed, with the exception of those at the sheer-line and keel mid-line. If I was doing this again, I'd use a couple of lengths of screwed rod to adjust the sections fore and aft, as this is time consuming and tricky otherwise. I'd also use scraps of polystyrene (instead of wire-netting) and Plaster of Paris in the interests of speed, as builder's plaster can take a day or two to fully dry-out. It took me a couple of attempts to work-out the best method of applying an 'orange-peel' covering. I found the best method was to cut 1" wide strips of stiff lining paper (the sort sometimes used under wallpaper when decorating), and applied one such strip along the sheer, and another along the keel-line, resting these strips against the marking pins, and holding them in place with a few more pins. Shorter, vertical strips of paper could then be sellotaped between these two outermost strips, with all strips hugging the hull's contours. If the vertical strips are initially applied with a space between each, then chine lines can be accurately transferred from the mould onto the paper before finally filling in the spaces, and securing the whole lot with lengths of Sellotape. After marking the transom and stem lines onto the paper, the resulting 'orange-peel' was lifted clear of the hull. Now comes the fun part. A vertical cut was made from the keel-line to the chosen chine-line at a position of beam max. - although this position doesn't appear critical. The chine-line was cut (and cut, and cut ...), until the 'orange-peel' eventually laid flat. As I've already mentioned, this was somewhat longer than expected - but so what ? It's as long as it needs to be ... Although this was a successful experiment (and thanks to Brent for suggesting the basic technique), I was a tad leery at first of extrapolating these lines up to full size, as even an 1mm error from the model would result in a 12mm discrepancy - until it occurred to me that the 'dart' area could easily be enlarged on a photocopier up to 1/4 real size, where a 1mm error in initial measurement would then be without consequence. Alex's thoughts re: "the conic sections influencing dart-length" got me thinking about the staves of old-fashioned wooden beer-barrels. In a sense, each half of an origami boat hull can be viewed as being rather like two such staves - which, if viewed from directly above are separated by a perfectly straight line, but if flattened out have identical gradual curves forming their mating surfaces. As this idea promised to provide the best possible (even ultimate ?) chine line, I worked-up another 'orange-peel' but now, rather than incorporate the original straight chine line as before, I estimated the required chine line curve by viewing the hull-half from above - as if this was two adjoining staves of a barrel. (Referring back to the model .gif in the files section, the lines marked "chine" can be seen as being straight lines. In this new hull form, these lines are now curved, and mirror the curved lines of the two adjacent 'tabs'/'flaps'. Hope this makes sense.) If this is a well-known feature, perhaps you'd excuse my enthusiasm - as I've only just discovered this ! The resulting hull form is a marked improvement over the first attempt, and the chine now produced is unobtrusive. I'm now on my 4th (and probably last) model, now only trimming and tinkering with fine adjustments ... It's a brilliant way of understanding the principles and developing confidence in the technique. I can wholeheartedly recommend it ! Colin 1478 From: nelstomlinson Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 5:05pm Subject: Re: from model to full-size ? Hello, Collin, That all sounds as if it would work, and it sounds like a lot of work. That's what I was hoping to avoid with the table of offsets. If you get a nice flat shape which makes a decent hull, I wish you'd give us Cartesian coordinates for its edges. By the way, your method of planking the turn of the bilges of your model sounds a lot like Dudley Dix's method of planking up his constant radius hulls. Your photocopier enlargement should work fairly well. It should certainly beat trying to make measurements from the 1:12 model. Since you are copying your cutouts, line thickness may not be an issue. Remember that line thickness will be enlarged along with everything else. That's why enlarging the gifs doesn't work, of course. I like your ``barrel approach''. Does this give a bit less knuckle where the chine ends? While you're experimenting with this, I suppose that you could carry your barrel analogy a bit farther, and make any number of staves, or tabs. Two chines might get you about as close to a round bilge as a sensible person would require. Nels 1479 From: kingsknight4life Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 6:51pm Subject: Swain for sale Hi. I saw a Swain boat for sale recently on-line. The current owner says that it was Brent's original metal boat but it is not an origmai boat. Does anyone on here know anything about this boat or have they seen it? It's a 30 ft. white boat and it doesn't have a pilothouse that's about all I know. I'm thinking about purchasing it as I'm getting impatient and I think it would take me a long time time to build one. : ) Thanks, Rowland 1480 From: kingsknight4life Date: Sat Apr 5, 2003 6:55pm Subject: Re: From Vancouver to Nanaimo did you end up purchasing that hull? I see that it is no longer for sale. Just curious as to what happened to it. Rowland 1484 From: sae140 Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 1:49pm Subject: Re: from model to full-size ? --- In origamiboats@yahoogroups.com, "nelstomlinson" wrote: > That .... sounds like a lot of work. Not really. Making up the hull itself from offsets or study plans is tedious, but the rest is a lot quicker and easier than it sounds. If you were to start with (say) a toy hull, or a Rugby or American football, then pasting-up an 'orange-peel' takes but 20 minutes or so. And ... when you've tried one particular chine cut, you can always return the 'orange-peel' to whatever you're using for a former, then after repairing the first cut, you can then proceed to try another ... Doing this, then drawing around the produced outline, is a *lot* quicker than calculating an outline from coordinates, which also requires the creation of curves by using a batten. > I like your ``barrel approach''. Does this give a bit less knuckle where the chine ends? In my model, there's less mid-chine knuckle than before, and the knuckle at the chine ends themselves is almost non-existent, and only shows because of the characteristics of cardboard. As steel will deform some (courtesy of a 2lb hammer), I'm confident that the transition at the chine ends will be almost invisible. In addition, I considered the idea of cutting the chine line (after the hull is pulled together, and with bracing in place), then making vertical cuts above and below the chine line every 4 inches or so - rather like producing a full set of false teeth (!), then bending these 'teeth' to follow a curved hull section, thus virtually eliminating the chine - but I don't think that extra work is justified. Likewise, although the 2 chine idea would certainly result in a rounder section, there's more work involved (especially if you round- off the chine as above), and the upper chine will be visible above the waterline anyway. I reckon there's a lot to be said for keeping things as simple as possible - and so get out on the water earlier .... Colin 1485 From: Alex Christie Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 5:27pm Subject: origamiboats under attack! Well, it seems our group is being spammed almost daily, so I'm going to have to narrow the entranceway a bit in terms of screening new memberships. This will not impact our functioning, nor will it impact current members, and will only slightly delay the postings of new members until I check them out. From now on, I'll moderate the first post of a new member and that way no spam should get through. It is time consuming, but I hate the the thought of peoples' mailboxes being plugged up with various useless spam scams. Alex 1486 From: nadim Date: Sun Apr 6, 2003 5:34pm Subject: Re: origamiboats under attack! thank you, say if you would like some help. Nadim. 1487 From: Claude Poitras Date: Mon Apr 7, 2003 0:49am Subject: RE: origamiboats under attack! Good idea Alex. One of these days, the Internet will become impossible to use. Claudius ; Fort McMurray Claude Poitras 1488 From: gaspereaux Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 2:03pm Subject: Twin Keeler News Letter - Ted Brewer Article Hi All, I have been away and am now just catching up on reading the postings. I noticed that there were a number of postings regarding Ted Brewers article and Twin keelers in general during March. I would like to mention that he published a very similar article in The Twin Keeler Newsletter. Twin Keeler is published about 4 times a year and I have found it to be worth every penny of its $15. subscription fee. I would like to repost some info that I posted on January 7, 2003. I have no commercial interest in this Newsletter! >>>>January 7, 2003. I have noticed that there are a number of owners of twin-keel boats in this news group so I want to let those of you who may not already know that there is a good news letter dedicated to twin-keel boats. Other than being a twin-keeler I have no direct interest in this publication: Twin-Keeler 632 Brindidi Court Punta Gorda, FL 33950 USA Editor-Publisher Craig E. Anderson ceadma@a... $12 US per year in US and Canada ($15.00 As of April 2003) <<<<< Regards, Rich Murray Weymouth MA 1489 From: Alex Christie Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 6:03pm Subject: New 40 footer album Dear Group, I've finally made my pilgrimage to see Gord's 40 footer being built in Vancouver, and have processed the photos and posted in an album entitled "40 Footer -- With Amazing Grace". The visit was very informative, and there's absolutely nothing like seeing the real thing to really get your head straight as to what you are getting into with a project like this! There are so many details that must be thought out on a boat that go beyond the basic notion of the hull and deck, and certainly challenges at every turn that demand creativity and patience to solve, as there is for many a custom boatbuilding project. The initial impression of the 40 footer bare hull is that it is a "ship" compared to the 36. However, after walking on the decks and down below, I quickly became accustomed to its size, and the more time I spent on it, the more I felt that it would be a the right size for long term living aboard for my family. It is large enough to accommodate food stores, water, spare equipment and fuel (the fin keel version that Gord is building has very ample tankage) for extensive journeys offshore, yet small enough to handle for two if set up properly. Gord has all lines running aft to the cockpit for this reason, and this should enhance single-handing capability. Even a boat run by two people is really a single-hander, since each person usually takes a watch on their own. Down below, I was pleased to see that the insides were not as cavernous as I had been expecting, but it was still very roomy. The space in the bow is big enough to really be creative and go beyond the usual v-berth and create a true useable cabin. I think this is because moving the aft bulkhead of the bow stateroom back will not steal too much space from the main salon. Alternately, one could still build a regular v-berth, but have an extra 4 feet to play with for other uses. Back aft, below the cockpit, Gord is putting a large private berth which allows one to have an aft cabin and still maintain the aft cockpit outside. This can be done on the 36 footer, but the bed is smaller, the engine has to move forward into the main cabin, and the cockpit footwell has to be sacrificed in order to gain room below. Ventilation for the aft cabin is provided via opening ports in the footwell of the cockpit. This is a clear example of how a slight step up in size of hull allows for greater flexibility in customizing to your needs. That said, I do maintain that the 36 footer, as built to the plans, represents the ideal simple cruising vessel for two, and would counsel anyone trying to choose between a 36 and a 40 to seriously look at how much space they really need. The 36 footer represents more closely Brent's philosophy of "go simply, go NOW" approach, whereas the 40, being a much bigger boat is going to require many more hours to finish (Gord has spent about as much time detailing with stainless as he has building the hull), and more hours to maintain. However, if you need the space due to crew size, then the choice is easier to make. I think any hull larger than this would leave the philosphy of simplicity behind in its wake and enter the realm of luxury yachts that "take" more than they "give". When you walk the docks, you can tell that it is the smaller boats that get used, while the "ships" tend to be stationary. The owner has made the sidedecks a few inches wider than called for on the plans, and this has yielded a very easy passage forward for the crew. A possible side-benefit to this decision is that weight of the cabinsides has been nudged that much closer to the centreline of the hull. Moving several hundred pounds of steel over like that has to be good for overall stability, I imagine. Again, this is something that can be done more easily on the 40 footer because there is that much more room down below. The interior space does not appear to be impacted at all by the slightly narrowed cabin. The stainless detailing on this hull is quite exceptional; Gord has been able to really polish up the welds where the horizontal railings meet the vertical stanchions with the help of a remarkable new type of polishing wheel that fits on his grinder. It looks and feels just like a regular grinding wheel, but it does not "eat" at the steel the way a grinding or cutting wheel would (which would leave big gouges). Instead, it allows you to feather the weld into the surrounding metal such that you cannot tell where the metal is joined to another piece. Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing work. Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? Of course not! For all the portlights, Gord has followed the Swain way of not having any small opening ports on the outside of the hull except for the forward hatch, the forward port in the centre of the pilot house, and two see-through hatches on the top of the pilot house. He has made the fixed ports even stronger by recessing them into the hull, such that no object can scrape at their edges. I'll conclude with the pilot house in this posting: While many choose to put forward-leaning windows on Brent boats, Gord has chosen the more typical aft-leaning windows. However, he has regained the rain and sun shading benefits usually reserved for Brent-style windows by putting a visor over the windows. That's about all for my report today. I hope to get over and see the 40 footer Mishar some time, as it is afloat and complete. It will be interesting to compare a finished boat to one in build. Alex 1490 From: nadim Date: Tue Apr 8, 2003 8:56pm Subject: Re: New 40 footer album Hi Alex, Thanks for your report On Tuesday 08 April 2003 19:03, Alex Christie wrote: > Definitely a must-have accessory for detailing work. > Did I remember the name of this remarkable wheel? > Of course not! Well you know what you have to do now. Cheers, Nadim. 1491 From: Alex and Kim Christie Date: Wed Apr 9, 2003 6:53pm Subject: twin keel link One of our members has forwarded me a link about one man's experiences with his twin keel boat, "Drinian": http://drinian.homestead.com/files/twins.htm Alex