OrigamiBoats Posts Archive Jan 2002 - December 2002 This is a text file of Origami posts, designed for newcomers to Origami and those with limited internet bandwidth. To reduce the size of the file, posts have been trimmed wherever possible, and repeated posts removed. During the editing process, thread links have been lost together with numbering up to post 886 (28 May). To pursue a specific thread or topic, you are recommended to perform a standard archive search, or examine the original post on the Origamiboats site. Colin Powell From: "dr01allen" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 2:00 pm Subject: Re: plastic hulls it's in the Chisom wholesale catalog. (800 8442484, no website that I can see) catalog #359, item# 90021 is the 1/4", 4X8 sheet of high density polyethylene. 41.2 lbs, $39.75 in singles. it's available from 1/8" to 1/2", weight and price scale with thickness. they also have a selection of stainless bolts, screws, and threaded rod. da From: "phillipdallen" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 2:09 pm Subject: I'd like to see Is anyone building (or otherwise working on) an origami boat near Northwest Arkansas? From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 3:41 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: plastic hulls Have you tried http://www.ultrapoly.com/ ? Stephen Ditmore New York From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 8:04 pm Subject: Re: material Welding: the decision to build a metal boat depends on what, where and how much you have available in terms of resources. I am building in steel. This means that I can build and weld in outdoor west coast winter conditions-or wherever. Simple and inexpensive transformer welding power scources and basic affordable stick (SMAW) welding rods can be easily purchaced for this type of welding. As soon as we move into more sophisticated welding techniques we require controlled atmospheric environment and more money. One of the most significant advantages of Brent's oragami proceedure is the lack of welding involved. The seams are comparativly short and the stitch welding for stringers etc is minimal. This saves on distortion, time, cost, edge prep, clean up and overall welding costs. Perhaps, more significantly (in terms of quality) it reduces the probability of defects. I was able to purchase an ancient propane cutting torch at a swap meet for $12--it works better than the $300 torch we use at the school--for this job. This type of cutting lends itself well to stick welding. Another advantage of basic stick welding is the ability to weld stainless to mild steel, galvanised pipe to plate etc. This can be done at the change of a rod unlike wire feed. Wire feed is easy to learn at first but the process is deceptive in that it can produce neat looking welds that leak, corode and that can, under stress, break away from the parent metal. Oxy-Propane cutting and stick welding steel is a simple, honest, practical and relativly inexpensive way for the average builder to construct a one off vessel. rt From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Jan 3, 2002 8:56 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: material For some reason I seem to be getting pieces of a conversation, so I'm not sure how this "plastic hulls" topic got started or what it's all about. However, especially in the larger sizes, I think an Origami design could be built from DuFlex http://www.atlcomposites.com/products_composite_duflex_intro.htm . This would open the possibility, it seems to me, of building an Origami vessel large enough to be a passenger or charter vessel. Stephen Ditmore From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2002 11:11 pm Subject: Re: new photos of 36 footer Alex, nice boat. May i ask who built Moonraven, how long ago and where the vessel has been to date? Thanks, rt From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 1:08 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: new photos of 36 footer Moonraven is berthed in Comox, but I know little of its life other than that. Brent knows the owners, I believe, and may be able to tell us more. Alex From: "evanmoonjunk" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2002 2:46 am Subject: Re: new photos of 36 footer > Hi Alex, Moonraven is owned by Doug and Judy Vansickle. It was started in 1984,I think, Brent and I worked together for several days on it, after which I worked on it quite a bit more and then Doug finished off the rest....Evan From: "alex_christie" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 5:44 pm Subject: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta Dear Group, I have just recently returned from a trip to Alberta, where I visited a boatbuilder who is fitting out his 39 foot aluminum origami hull. See photo album for pix (Under, "Aluminum 39 Footer"). It is being completed inside a greenhouse, so I couldn't get any full-hull shots, but the details may be interesting to examine. This hull is not technically a Swain hull, but rather a modification based on his 36 foot design, done by a company called Fastwater (now closed) in Vancouver. The hull was trucked from Vancouver to Alberta, luckily without ballast installed, so it was an easy haul being aluminum. It is one of only a full hulls of its type, possibly only 1 of 2. The company which built the bare hull did a few things differently on this one. Firstly, the hard chine midships has been replaced by sections of a radius, smoothing out that area. There is some debate as to whether the time spent rounding off the chine (and risking heat distortion) adds much in speed, and I would tend to think it doesn't much. But it certainly looks pretty! The rudder and skeg (more high aspect than most Swain hulls)has been moved inboard of a reverse transom, and the cooling system is no longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-heat exchanger system. The owner has put in three different kinds of steering for redundancy, pedestal steering (mechanical), emergency tiller steering (mechanical, on top of rudder shaft), and hydraulic (inside steering station). The boat is going to be equipped for diving, so there is a large gate which folds out from the transom but folds flush when in the up position. It is an interesting looking boat, and it was very handy to be able to walk around inside a vessel of similar size to the 40 I plan to build. I got all sorts of ideas as to what could fit in a boat that big, and it is certainly cavernous compared to the 36. This bodes well for fitting my family of 4 and two 55 lb dogs onboard (anyone looking to adopt a nice pair of dogs in about 3 years??). The owner plans on completing the hull and launching it in Vancouver, after which he and his wife will live aboard and cruise locally for a bit before undertaking off-shore ventures, possibly around the world. In the coming weeks I hope to get over to Vancouver and see the two 40 foot steel boats and get some photos and information on those vessels, one of which is afloat, the other being finished. Stay tuned! Alex Christie From: "winslow59" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2002 11:04 pm Subject: Brent, Board Members: If building today - steel or aluminum? 36-40 ft sailboat for live-aboard and voyaging (the pelagic life). Steel or Aluminum - which and why? (I've read some of the books & articles by designers and engineers - I'm curious to read about the decisions of folks who are spending their own money and/or time building and will sail their own boats.) -Markus From: "lbanerd" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 7:26 pm Subject: Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta -- In origamiboats@y..., "alex_christie" wrote: > and the cooling system is no > longer part of the skeg but rather your traditional raw-water-heat > exchanger system. Could you elaborate on this? I had not heard of a cooling system associated with the skeg. How does it work? - L Banerd From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Jan 11, 2002 8:08 pm Subject: Re: 39 foot aluminum twin keel in Alberta Roughly 2/3rds of marine engine failures are from water cooling systems .Many of these failures come from pumping seawater through a complex mass of plumbing such as heat exchangers, filters, or raw water through the engine itself.With a metal hull, the whole surface of the hull is a cooling surface . With such a huge cooling surface available, it doesn't make much sense to accept the compexity of a heat exchanger system. Most of my boats since 1980 have simply used the skeg as a cooling tank, with no problems . If the hot water is pumped into the top of the skeg only the coolest water will find it's way to the bottom. Putting the pickup pipe for the return line at the bottom of the skeg results in the cooler water returning to the engine eliminating the need for baffles in the skeg . It takes roughly 1.5 square ft of surface area for every ten horsepower of engine. The skegs on my boats have had ample area to cool engines up to 50 HP with no problems .Using anti freeze as a coolant and changing it every couple of years eliminates any corrosion problems . Brent Swain From: "alex_christie" Date: Sat Jan 12, 2002 6:44 am Subject: twin keel article Many of the Swain designed hulls feature twin keels. Here is a link for an interesting article about twin keel applications on different kind of yachts, written by Vancouver naval architect Patrick Bray: http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html Alex Christie From: "alex_christie" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 11:40 pm Subject: Swain 30 for sale For anyone looking for a steel boat in the 30 foot range, I've come across a listing for a Swain 30 (steel) for sale in the Buy and Sell (Vancouver). The ad states: 30' 1976 BRENT SWAIN STEEL SLOOP, near new Yamaha 9.9 4-stroke, 2 anchors, furling jib, solar panel, windlass, Dickinson diesel heater, VHF, $28,500 Cdn. OBO. Call Tel: 604-831-8092 I'll post the photo in the Photos section as, "aSwain30.jpg" Alex Christie From: "alex_christie" Date: Mon Jan 14, 2002 4:19 am Subject: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop For your interest, new photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop of steel have been added to the photos section. This boat was built on Vancouver Island by the same builder/owner who previously built a steel Swain 27, Dove III (see photo section for images), which was sailed through the Canadian Northwest Passage in two seasons. This is his third steel Swain boat. See also Dove II, another 36 footer he built, at this site: http://www.boatbuilding.ws/swain02.htm Alex Christie From: "Sigge Johansson" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:12 pm Subject: Skeg as a cooling tank Interesting solution. Is it also possible to get a similar system with 100hp on a 50feet steelsailer? And what about all those hot exhausts? Shall it be cooled with seawater? Any suggestions? Sigge Johansson 524 Re: Skeg as a cooling tank brentswain38 Mon 1/21/2002 From: "r_biese" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2002 5:03 pm Subject: 44 double ender Hiya in the files section there is a 44 double ender Junk sail first question where does the design comes from ? what about draft, beam etc I would like to build one as a gaff ketch as I like them..... Ronald From: "russa1111" Date: Sun Jan 20, 2002 3:11 pm Subject: Re: New photos of 36 foot fin keel sloop Hi Alex, Just popped back to check on the group after being absent for a few months. You have certainly been busy. I had a look at Winston's boat about 18months ago when I last saw Gene. It is a very well built and finished boat but the new photo's don't show the most interesting feature of this boat which is that, in common with the other Dove, it is fitted with a much taller wheelhouse rather than a pilothouse. It is also good to see that construction of the Aluminum boat is underway again. Russ Ashworth. From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:39 pm Subject: Re: Skeg as a cooling tank It takes about 1.5 square ft per 10 horsepower. If you don't have enough surface area in the skeg, you can also use the back of the keel, or weld channel iron, or a cooling tank inside the hull to make up the extra surface area . I usually go for a dry exhaust , but some people just put in a separate pump to cool the exhaust . It's still a lot less problem prone to simply pump seawater direct to the exhaust than to pump it through the entire engine heat exchanger , filters, etc . Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:45 pm Subject: Re: Skeg as a cooling tank It's best to do a bit of an overkill when it comes to surface area of a skeg cooler as it's easy to do in the building stage and much harder to do after the fact. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon Jan 21, 2002 7:53 pm Subject: Re: 44 double ender Jack Carson bought a 36 footer which had been built as a double ender and cut it in half, put 8 ft in the middle, pushed the beam out, etc , etc , and ended up with a 44 footer. Brent Swain From: "lonedamnwolf1" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:20 am Subject: origami cat Hello Everybody, Has anyone ever tried to build an origami sailing cat out of aluminum? I am blown away by the folding metal method. It is so simple and elegant. My little models are pretty. What cat design would be appropriate? I like the theory behind Wharrams. Am I missing something that makes this impossible? Some body please be my Obi Wan Kenobi on this. Thanks, James Floyd From: "Gary Lepak" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:30 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] origami cat Wharrams have been built of aluminum, but the shape is so simple and slender the origami technique isn't required. I'm sure you could do it if you wanted a fuller rounded hull shape. I saw a website with a narrow canoe or kayak built this way out of plywood, but I can't remember where it was now. Gary From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 2:36 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat The site you may be thinking of for the tortured plywood canoes is http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ . This method uses vertical cuts up to the gunwale. Whether it's adaptable to metal construction is a good question... Also, multihull designer Kurt Hughes has developed some worthwhile strategies for rapid construction. His web site is http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ Similarly Derek Kelsell in England and others. Stephen Ditmore From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 4:21 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat This may be sacrilege in this forum, but let me also note that you can do pretty well using foam & fiberglass. Go to http://www.dcss.org/ayrs/newsltrs/july97/ and, on the left, click on "Quick Hull-Building." Having said that, it would be interesting to explore whether Stillwater Boats' method is applicable to metal multis. Stephen From: "kupris1948" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 6:38 pm Subject: dumb epoxy paint question # 1209 What if epoxy is applied to epoxy after the recoat time? what happens? does a slippery surface make the new paint not stick well? does the surface have to be roughed up, mechanically or chemically? Christie Thu 1/24/2002 From: "carlmbentley" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:33 pm Subject: engines with winter here i'm hoping more of you are reading the board, actually i hope you are all in the islands but . . . since i'm not, i have a question or two. first: is there one (or three) brand of engine that everyone agrees is the best. well actually i'm just interested to see what some of you think in general, be it price v/s performance, lifespans, ease of maintance, or lack of part availability etc etc for different inboard diesel options. this seems to be the one of the expenses that can't really be avoided (aside from not having one) can't make your own, can go used i suppose, or improvise let's say you have to buy one though - comments ? that's it, i'll hold off on the rest of my questions till after i read brents book, sorry if he covers this one already -carl From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Thu Jan 24, 2002 7:40 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] dumb epoxy paint question # 1209 Kupris1948 asks, > What if epoxy is applied to epoxy after the recoat time? > what happens? does a slippery surface make the new paint not stick > well? does the surface have to be roughed up, mechanically or > chemically? Epoxy as it cures gives off an "amine blush" as a byproduct of the cross-linking reaction. Another layer of epoxy can be applied while the original layer is in the "gel stage" (middle stage) and still acheive chemical bonding, but after final cure state is acheived, only mechanical bonding is possible. If more epoxy must be applied after the recoat time, the amine blush has to be removed and, as you mentioned already the surface has to be mechanically roughened. For West System epoxy, washing with water and scrubbing with something like a 3m Scotchbrite(tm) pad is required, followed by sanding with 80-grit sandpaper, before a recoat is attempted. Don't skip the water wash and scrub, or you'll just grind the amine blush into grooves created by sanding! Applying epoxy within the specified recoat time would be preferable in an ideal world, as this means that all layers are chemically linked together into one nice thick layer. Here is what West System says on their website, at http://www.westsystem.com . They've got excellent technical data about epoxy: Surface preparation Whether you are bonding, fairing or applying fabrics, the success of the application depends not only on the strength of the epoxy, but also on how well the epoxy adheres to the surface to which it is being applied. Unless you are bonding to partially cured epoxy, the strength of the bond relies on the epoxy's ability to mechanically "key" into the surface. That is why the following three steps of surface preparation are a critical part of any secondary bonding operation. For good adhesion, bonding surfaces should be: 1. Clean Bonding surfaces must be free of any contaminants such as grease, oil, wax or mold release. Clean contaminated surfaces with lacquer thinner, acetone or other appropriate solvent. Wipe the surface with paper towels before the solvent dries. Clean surfaces before sanding to avoid sanding the contaminant into the surface. Follow all safety precautions when working with solvents. 2. Dry All bonding surfaces must be as dry as possible for good adhesion. If necessary, accelerate drying by warming the bonding surface with a hot air gun, hair dryer or heat lamp. Use fans to move the air in confined or enclosed spaces. Watch for condensation when working outdoors or whenever the temperature of the work environment changes. 3. Sanded Sand smooth non-porous surfaces-thoroughly abrade the surface. 80-grit aluminum oxide paper will provide a good texture for the epoxy to "key" into. Be sure the surface to be bonded is solid. Remove any flaking, chalking, blistering, or old coating before sanding. Remove all dust after sanding. Special preparation for various materials Cured epoxy-Amine blush can appear as a wax-like film on cured epoxy surfaces. It is a by-product of the curing process and may be more noticeable in cool, moist conditions. Amine blush can clog sandpaper and inhibit subsequent bonding, but it can easily be removed. It's a good idea to assume it has formed on any cured epoxy surface. To remove the blush, wash the surface with clean water (not solvent) and an abrasive pad, such as Scotch-brite(tm) 7447 General Purpose Hand Pads. Dry the surface with paper towels to remove the dissolved blush before it dries on the surface. Sand any remaining glossy areas with 80-grit sandpaper. Wet-sanding will also remove the amine blush. If a release fabric is applied over the surface of fresh epoxy, amine blush will be removed when the release fabric is peeled from the cured epoxy and no additional sanding is required. Epoxy surfaces that have not fully cured may be bonded to or coated with epoxy without washing or sanding. Before applying coatings other than epoxy (paints, bottom paints, varnishes, gelcoats, etc.), allow epoxy surfaces to cure fully, then wash and sand. Hardwoods-Sand with 80-grit paper. Teak/oily woods-Wipe with acetone 15 minutes before coating. Solvent removes the oil at the surface and allows epoxy to penetrate. Be sure solvent has evaporated before coating. Porous woods-No special preparation needed. If surface is burnished, possibly by dull planer or saw blades, sand with 80-grit paper to open pores. Remove dust. Steel, lead-Remove contamination, sand or grind to bright metal, coat with epoxy then sand fresh epoxy into surface. Re-coat or bond after first coat gels. Aluminum-Sand and prepare with 860 Aluminum Etch Kit. Polyester (fiberglass)-Clean contamination with a silicone and wax remover such as DuPont Prep-Sol(tm) 3919S. Sand with 80-grit paper to a dull finish. Plastic-Adhesion varies. If a plastic is impervious to solvents such as acetone, epoxy generally will not bond to it. Soft, flexible plastics such as polyethylene, polypropylene, nylon, Plexiglas and polycarbonate fall into this category. Hard, rigid plastics such as PVC, ABS and styrene provide better adhesion with good surface preparation and adequate bonding area. After sanding, flame oxidizing (by quickly passing propane torch over the surface without melting the plastic) can improve bonding in some plastics. It's a good idea to conduct an adhesion test on a plastic that you are uncertain about. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 12:14 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines My tidbit to add to the engine question is just this: If you plan on cruising in one geographic area, then choose an engine from a manufacturer which gives you plenty of access to reasonably priced parts. If you plan to go offshore, then getting an engine that has world-wide support is handy, though there will always be one place or another which won't have what you need. If I thought I was going to cruise exclusively in a certain area, then I'd find an engine which is supported well in that region. What is the most popular marine engine in, say, the Carribean? I know that sounds obvious, but that didn't stop me from falling into the trap of buying a used Perkins diesel for a fire-sale price, only to learn that the parts-support network was virtually non-existent on the British Columbia coast. The result was that I had an engine that I could not install in my boat because I lacked key parts to mate it to the transmission. This was not the fault of Perkins, but the fault of Detroit-Diesel Allison of BC, which held the right to distribute Perkins parts but had shrugged its responsibilities. When I called Detroit-Diesel Allison about parts to the first time, I recall being met with very obvious indifference to my need by a company which evidently did not depend on the yachtsman for its bread on butter, but rather the larger industrial users. Perkins has reputedly taken steps to improve the situation, but I am understandably shy of the product. Asking around at the local docks about the type of engine that interests you will very quickly reveal the type that has the best quality and best service record, usually. Isuzu has a long tradition on this coast, both among pleasure boaters and fishermen. One shop in my area, Klassen Diesel, rebuilds them and sells them for a reasonable price (last time I checked). The parts network would extend up and down the coast, anywhere fishboats are found, and this is a comforting thought. I am guessing that worldwide parts availability is pretty good too, even in third world countries. Checking on the yachting forums by asking about this would be a surefire way of knowing. One origamiboat builder/owner installed one of Isuzu's new low-profile engines which fits perfectly just behind the companionway stairs where room is limited due to the rise of the hull toward the transom. Some thoughts, in any case. Alex Christie From: "Michael Casling" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:04 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines Carl asked about engines: I have a Yanmar and would recommend it however I would prefer to have a smoother running unit, mine is a bit of a pounder. Also I would find out if the engine can be started using the crank handle. Mine can not. Most of the Volvo engines I have seen run smooth and they are popular. The ease of rebuilding and servicing the injectors and pump, the starter motor and alternator, and the water pump should be considered. In fresh water the Yanmar has an advantage in that the block is easy to drain, but with a heat exchanger or The Brent cooling system it is not a problem. I do not think real diesels should be aluminum like the VW pathfinder. The quietest and smoothest I have heard is an Arona made in Italy. If the Isuzu is as good as my truck I would get one. Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 and Yanmar 2QM15 caslingm@s... From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 1:54 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines Michael, I have an Izuzu in my 35 ft sailboat. It's been a tough engine. While I was in Ft.Lauderdale I rebuilt it. I was able to get Parts wholesale from Gulf Stream Perkins and Izuzu in Miami. The only thing wrong with the engine is it does not have sleeves in it. So its good for one rebore. Talked to General Motors who owns Izuzu and found out that they have a set of sleeves the block can be rebored to fit. That makes it no longer a throw away engine. The engine I have is the three cylinder industrial engine converted for marine use. It is 45 horsepower approximately. The high pressure fuel pump and injectors are Bosh and can be bought from them if need be. This engine is built in a two cylinder model, I don't know if they can be bought any smaller or not. Doug Pollard From: "Joe Casey" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:57 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines Hi Douglas, Thank you for the informative post. Would you follow up with the model number and year of the basic engine and can you recall how you contacted the part of GM that deals in Isuzu engines and could answer your questions about it? Regards, Joe From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 5:05 am Subject: Isuzu engines - rebore or resleeve? Group, I'll do my part by calling the local Isuzu people and asking about the whole rebore\resleeve issue, as they do rebuilds regularly. I guess the main question would be, are these rebores or a rebore with a sleeve? I think the price on their 36 hp was about 5000 Cdn, but that was about 5 years ago. If that is still the case, it is a very good deal. I'll let you know! Alex Christie From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:24 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines Hi Joe, I did not put sleeves in my engine as I found out to late, but I will, if I rebuild again. I was told about by the owner of M&S Engine or automotive [not to be confused with M&S Precision] who bored my engine. I called a number given to me by him and reached engineering at GM. The sleeves are not manufactured for that engine, but are for a GM engine I think. They are the right size to be used in the Izuzu engine. I do remember but the sleeves probably have to be bored after installation to fit the pistons? The engineer talked like just about any angina could be bored and sleeved at least that's the impression I got. My engine information is store in a storage unit as I am rebuilding my boat so numbers and such are not readily available at the moment. I think my engine is a model 3ab1 and was built about 1974. My engine was not built as a marine engine but was marinized by the boat manufacturer. I don't think Izuzu had entered the marine engine field at that time at least not with this particular model. I was told that the smaller engines they now sell are this same engine block. From the looks of several engines I have seen, I think all the more recent engines are the same block with anywhere from 2 to 6 cylinders.This may not be so. Izuzu sells a very good rebuild book that I'd buy even if I did not intend to rebuild any time soon. It is a real help in working on and understanding the engine. I also rebuilt the marine clutch. I bought a book from the manufacturer and a set of new clutch disks along with gaskets and seals. Getting the clutch disks in properly is a little tricky but other than that those things are very simple. They are certainly not some mysterious piece of machinery that the marine drive mechanics would have you believe. One of them told me I would never get it back together. It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of your engine and boat Hope this helps, Doug. From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 4:44 pm Subject: isuzu and sabb engines > It' a great feeling to be a long way from home and know every piece of your engine and boat Hope this helps, Doug. Doug, that approach is completely in line with the philosophpy of these boats. The more we can do ourselves, the better the cruising experience (and the continuation of the cruising experience). I have never read a cruising story that didn't have an engine breaking down every chapter! A friend of mine bought an older 30hp Sabb diesel for this very reason. Apparently it can be taken apart and put together with a very small selection of simple tools, making it a great cruising engine. Too bad they no longer make that size. Alex Christie From: "nubiwan4thsig" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 2:45 pm Subject: How much steel plate required Does anyone have an idea how much sheet steel is required to make a 31 ft and 36 ft sailboat hull? I would like to get a cost estimate so I can determine the largest size boat I can afford. Thanks Larry Doyle From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 9:46 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] isuzu and sabb engines Alex, Tom Colvin has always recommended the Saab engine for that reason at least when he recommends an engine at all. I think he only has one to appease his wife. I heard him tell a fellow that was going to take his off shore fisherman to Bermuda one time that he was either the bravest or the dumbest guy in the world to go all that far without even a single sail. I kind of feel the same way about the fellow who doesn't know how to fix his boat and goes off wondering around in an ocean. To not be able to fix things while cruising is the fastest way for a guy to loose his wife's confidence. He may find himself standing on a tarmac somewhere watching his wife catch a plane back home. I think she is absolutely right to do that too. After all he has not properly prepared himself for the task they face. I have advised several people who were looking for boats to go off cruising in. These people seemed to have little or no mechanical know-how. I tried to get them to see that the preparation is a big part of the fun. These would be cruisers are probably three to five years from taking off on their adventure so I talked them into taking classes in Engine repair, a little woodworking and some kind of electrical classes. I see these skills as nearly as important to the ultimate success of their adventure as is learning to sail and navigate. Just my opinion, Doug From: "mat_man22" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:03 pm Subject: Re: origami cat Gary This may be the conoe you are thinking about: Swamp Yankee Boats canoe http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm Mat From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 11:22 pm Subject: Re: isuzu and sabb engines All this engine talk reminds me of the need to make a decision on a source of power. I have been looking at Kubota engines recently. We just replaced one that had been running "at camp" as a gen' set for over 20 years without a rebuild. The engine still runs well--the model is a 1902 and we replaced it with a 1903. They come in 37hp and 42hp etc. and are designed for use with a keel cooler rather than raw water. As a small four cylinder they tend to run quite smoothly and don't seem to leak. Brent's suggestion of forced air in--forced air out engine compartments should work well with an engine like this. I can procrastinate a little longer since i have more lead to scrounge for the ballast. One day power may turn out to be an inboard diesel . . . rt, building Swain 36 From: "mat_man22" Date: Fri Jan 25, 2002 10:55 pm Subject: Re: origami cat Stephen Thanks very much. This link goes into more detail and has some pictures. http://www.amya.org/multihull/multi0009nl.pdf Mat From: "Gary Lepak" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 12:53 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Yup, that's the one. Thanks. Gary From: "alex_christie" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 5:11 am Subject: aluminum origami dinghy Dear Group, I've posted two photos into the photos section of the aforementioned origami dinghy I spotted on Gabriola Island, BC. The designer of this particular boat is unknown. Alex From: "alex_christie" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:39 am Subject: Re: origami cat James, I think doing an origami cat is certainly possible. If you've already built the model hull shown in the files section then you understand the process intuitively, and can start playing around with card paper until you get the long slim hulls that cats ask for. Just stretch the lines, essentially, until you get the shape you want, and the card paper will tell you quite quickly what can and cannot be done with sheet material (essentially a very cheap 3-d plate modelling program!). I don't think the shape would be limited to types personified by plywood sheet construction entirely, as the aluminum can be "convinced" to take some curves that ply might not want to. In this way you can get a fairly curvy hull. Brent's system can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing). Its an intriguing idea. Take a peak at Tony Bigras' site http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/o7.htx on his 50 foot aluminum cat. I think it was built conventionally, but well worth a look, and you could alway try and email him for ideas. I saw a dinghy on the same island that Tony lives on (Gabriola) and was delighted to find it built origami-style, though different than Brent's system. I am not sure if it was Tony's or not. This dinghy is quite large and deep with unusual seams which led me to suspect that whoever built it made very good use of the aluminum sheets. I have a photo somewhere in my hard drive which I'll dig up and post for the group. It may yield some ideas for your project, and it shows that there is more than one way to skin an origami cat. Alex Christie From: "alex_christie" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:09 am Subject: Re: How much steel? I am awaiting a quote on a batch of steel to start my 40 footer this spring and will let you know what it all comes to, if that is any help. Alex From: "alex_christie" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 9:16 am Subject: aluminum origami skiff For your interest I've now posted those two photos I mentioned earlier of the aluminum origami skiff from Gabriola Island. The have been posted under the name, "aluminum origami skiff". Next time I am to that island I am going to try to track down the owner and ask him about the design's origins. Alex From: james floyd Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Alex, Thank you for the encouraging words. So, you just manipulate the 'T' -shaped notch in the plate? Is there a mathematical formula for its placement? Brent Swain's book has not arrived yet. Let's say I get the two hulls built, Wharram-style, with an open bridgedeck; what determines where you place the mast? Any other books you recommend for me? I have seen and corresponded with Tony Bigras. He turned me on to this group! The boat I want to build will be in the 40 foot range. His was 50 and it took about 2500 hours. The origami sure would take a lot less time. Thanks, James From: "Gary Lepak" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram ----- Original Message ----- From: "alex_christie" . Brent's system > can yield you a vee-bottomed hull which is very strong, and could > probably flatten it into a semi-planing "U" form toward the stern > with a long shallow slope to the transom. Conversely you could make > the stern more like the Wharram types which are (I think) very much > double-enders (very comfy in a seaway, I'm guessing). Its an > intriguing idea. I built a 46' Wharram in the 70's and sailed it from Seattle to the Queen Charlottes, down to San Francisco off shore non-stop from Queen Charlotte City, eventually to San Diego, and then to Hawaii, over 4 1/2 years. I would not use the Wharram hull form. In inland sailing they pitch a lot to windward because there is no bearing in the stern. This detracts from their already poor windward ability (no boards). Surfing they are very hard to steer as the bows bury in the wave ahead and they want to broach. . They are also slow to start surfing as the stern buries in the approaching wave instead of lifting and starting the boat down the wave face. After having the Wharram, I designed and built a fatter hulled 34' V-bottom ply cat with fuller ends and a transom and boards and was a big improvedment in hull form. A 40' origami aluminum cat sounds like a good idea. I would try to approach a more rounded modern cat form and have dagger or center boards or mini keels. Another drawback of the Wharram style is difficulty tacking because of the narrow deep hulls. They turn like they are on railroad tracks and lose way too soon. Fatter, roundbottomed hulls with boards will tack a lot easier. The deep V also has a lot of wetted surface which will slow it down in light air. Just a few thoughts from my exerience with a Wharram. Gary Lepak Port Angeles, WA From: "jim_cl" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 4:48 pm Subject: Re: How much steel? You have to keep in mind that the cost of the hull is probably around 20% of the total cost of the finished boat. Having a smaller boat WILL result in savings in the terms of the steel cost, but also in terms of the sails, winches, engine, etc. Many a dream boat has not got its keel wet due to the misconception that the hull is 80% of the boat. Far from it, the hull is only 20% in terms of $$. From: "Larry Doyle" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? Jim, Thanks for the reply. In all the research that I've done, one of the common threads is that the hull will cost from 1/4 to 1/3 the total price of the boat. Depending on how much sweat equity you put in. However, it's still a large chunk of change that has to be considered. Larry Doyle From: johm gorham Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:27 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram Hello,Iam on an atkins 36 foot steel cutter.I was hit at anchor in Richardson Bay by a Japanese fishing vessel going to sea.The owner Mr. Onishi wandered off the channel.He was traveling about fifiteen to twenty knots.The vessel smacked my stern doing considerable damage to the transom,bulwark,self steering device,was damaged but new parts brought it back into action.The reason for steel really came home.Any other vessel would be at the bottom of the bay.Aftr,using a torch and heating the area,a large cheater attached by heavy duty monster c clamps,fianlly in less than 8 hours got it pretty much back to normal.A wooden vessel would of been a total loss.The fiberglass vessel would of split in two pieces.Insurance money thank God came through,after three month of promises.When will these coperations go through the pain they cause.I appreciate if you all will never forget why we build our ships of steel..John Gorham Sailing Vessel Rose. Please forward From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Sat Jan 26, 2002 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Gary, I did some playing with the file SwainModel.gif that Alex posted of Brent's design method and I sent him back a file with lines showing how the model is comprised of all conical sections. I then took this concept into Rhino, a 3D surface modeler that you can download a full working demo that will load and run 25 times, and it can be bought for less than $500. I was able to create 3D models of hulls that I could then unfold and print on paper, then tape together to prove they were correct. I did two hull sides, a transom, and a deck to be sure the edges would mate properly. Trying to stretch the Brent Swain concept in X and Y will drive you absolutely crazy, you'll get a really unfair hull, or something you can't weld without tons of gaps or just a whole lot of work and disappointment, and you will never be really sure how big it will be. Brent's book does NOT give you enough information to work out building a design of this type from scratch. I suggest you actually buy one of Brent's plan sets, study it real hard, then download Rhino and transfer the dimensions from the plans so you have a real world starting point. Rhino will show you how fair the hull is, it will calculate some hydrostatics, like hull volume center of buoyancy, center of hull volume, etc. and there are plug-in currently in Beta testing and available free to get a whole lot more. I would be happy to send anyone here one of my Rhino model files (crude because I am just playing in my little spare time) to try. Education is a wonderful thing, and well worth paying for, before you try building a boat. I will be purchasing a set of Brent's plans myself, just for the educational value. Gary H. Lucas From: Stephen Wandling Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:04 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? Larry, It's my understanding that the steel for hull, deck and cabin for a 36' Swain hull will cost about CD$8,000 here in Canada. I believe this is for wheel abraded, zinc rich primed steel. Stephen From: "Michael Casling" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 4:36 am Subject: Size Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Is there much of a speed difference between the two, and or comfort level in rough conditions. Can the engine in the 36 be placed under the floor as in the 40 ? Thanks Michael Casling Tanzer 8.5 Maarire caslingm@s... From: "mat_man22" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:37 am Subject: Re: origami cat Gary Lucas Wow, thanks for your post. You have done a lot things I have been thinking of. Wouldn't Swamp Yankee Boats canoe be allot closer to a cat than one of Brents designs? (and a lot cheaper at $15) http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/cuttingout.html http://members.aol.com:/swmpyanke/default.htm I read that the Rhino demo would last longer if you didn't shut it or your computer down. Also found a user group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/ From this group I learned that a full powered legal copy could be obtained cheaper by transfering a student version. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rhino3d/message/112 Thanks Mat From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 8:48 am Subject: 40 steel approx. steel costs and other considerations I am still waiting for my steel quote for the 40, but I am guessing that the steel, wheel abraded and primed, will come in at about $11,000 Cdn. The advantage of zinc-rich pre-primed steel is that it avoids one expensive and troublesome step normally associated with steel boatbuilding: there is no need to sand-blast this steel before painting. It has all been done for you before you put the boat together. There are minimal weld seams on the origami boat, and you just grind and prime these spots by hand before painting. It avoids the "rusted hulk" look that many steel boat projects take on, and is probably a major factor in keeping the local complaints to a minimum when a 36 foot sailboat hull suddenly sprouts next to your urban house (see "Austin Hull" in the photo files section for an example of this). A few boats have been launched only dressed in primer, then painted later successfully. It may sound heretical to do this to some, but it is a nice option to have in your back pocket should, say, you rented building site no longer offer secure tenure (it seems the destiny of many rental situations to sour in time). This type of thing appeals to the "survivalist" in me, in that, rather than locking me into one pattern of action, I am offered options along the way. This is the essence of the unconventional boatbuilding method that Brent has developed, and along with that comes a survivalist or do-it-yourself philosphy as a logical extension of the practice. Call it "The Spiritual Side of Origami boatbuilding" if you will. It is not for every body, and for those that can afford to just go out and buy what they want without concern for cost, there are some great yachtbuilders I know of that can build a beautiful steel boat for the right price. Try www.kristenyachts.com in Sydney, BC, or www.waterlineyachts.com for examples of some nice boats for people with deep pockets. I really like metal boatbuilder Topper Hermansen's work at www.thboats.com , and just go and read his inspiring treatise on steel and aluminum for boatbuilding at http://www.thboats.com/pages/advmetal.html. His advice on how to analzye a design objectively for your needs is great. I am going to list some of the options available to the origami boatbuilder that may not be available to those taking the conventional approach (although they could adapt some things): Mast: Buy new, or build yourself with Brent's instructions. Interior: Finish meticulously to high standards, or foam it, put in a plywood bunk, basic galley, bucket for a head, and go cruising now (finish as you go). One person Brent know of has done this and is off bluewater sailing, solo (okay, it might make it a little hard to attract your wife to go along!), but he is doing it, which is what counts in the end. Exterior: Finish all coats or grind and prime weld seams and launch vessel early to escape impending military coup (I'm half-joking, but this could be the case for someone somwhere in the world...) Engine: Install engine you want, or just install engine bed for desired engine for a future date and sail away with a good high-thrust outboard from Yamaha or Honda. I am sure there are other options my tired brain can't think of right now, but you get my drift. The point is to go now, go safely, but go and stop dithering. Dithering is another pursuit with its own joys, and I won't outright criticize it, having done my share of dithering! Alex From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:59 am Subject: 40 footer -- reasons for choice > Alex, you mentioned that you were going to start your 40. Obviously the 40 has more room than the 36 however, I would >like to hear your thoughts and reasons for choosing one over the other. Michael, the question of choice between sizes is very much in my mind lately, so good that you should ask. I have done a lot of soul-searching and deep thought over taking on the 40 footer project versus the 36, and it was only very recently that I really made the choice between the two. Brent has always advised building the smallest boat that can fulfill your needs, and wisely pointed to the fact that our kids won't be sticking around with us on our boat forever. Therefore the 36 would be perfect for a couple, or a couple cruising locally upcoast with 2 kids. I have visited two different couples on their 36 footers, and I have to say their choice of hull size is a "match made in heaven". Just big enough for very comfortable world cruising or living aboard, low-strain rig, fast enough, easy to handle in tight quarters around docks and in canals, and economic in a slip. Maintenance-wise it is not a freakish amount of hull skin to bottom paint (apologies to Steve Dashew, but could you imagine doing one of his 60 footers in a casual afternoon?). Keeping your boat in shape should not be a nightmare, it should be a reasonable and pleasant pursuit. Basically the 36 is big enough when you need it big, and small enough when you need it small. The 36 is what I'd call the quintessential all-around "suv" of the Swain boats, and must be the most popular by far of his designs. I think it is the biggest boat you can build easily without special plate handling equipment. For example each half shell of the hull (see photos) before being zipped to the other half can be rocked back and forth with one person on either end and thus "walked" into position. No tractor, crane or forklift is needed to build that boat. For local cruising on the BC coast, I am sure the 36 would be fine for my family of two adults and two kids (maybe the two 60 lbs dogs would have to stay ashore). If it was just my wife and I living aboard, then the 36 would be for us, most definitely. If I were a single gent I'd be building the 31 or 36. The only reason I have chosen to build the 40 is that we plan on living aboard full time with our kid and dog collection (I haven't actually told the dogs about their impending lifestyle change, but they seem to be only interested in much sleeping interspersed with frenzied running on a beach, so should adapt quite well). We simply need the space if we want the lifestyle to be sustainable (key word), and the 40 is one big boat compared to the 36, since it is more than length that is different. I'd like our two girls to feel "at home" with some space of their own (within the constraints of the boat size, of course -- they won't get "princess rooms" with their own phones, stereo and colour tv!), and to not feel like they are always under the parental gaze. And we in turn will desire some privacy (ah blessed aft cabin calling my name...). I never thought about speed, funny that, but I suppose it might be a bit faster than the 36. Building the boat will be a little more challenging, but not impossible. Whereas the deckplates of the 36 can be installed by two people manually, the 40 will need some assistance from an overhead winch/cable arrangement which I'll rig up using some of our big douglas fir trees. A friend does the same thing at his log home building business, and slings huge beams with it. I'll copy that one. The 40 will take more lead to ballast, more time to fit out the interior, and a slightly bigger engine I suppose, plus a larger mast and sail arrangement. Being that it'll be our home, I hold no grudge at the extra time required by the bigger size in all the aspects. If this were to be a weekend cruiser or two person bluewater boat, I would question my sanity directly and go build the 36, no doubts there, but other might think differently. 40 seems to be this magic number that defines the idea of "bluewater" boat these days, and there is one yacht rally I dimly recall where they limited the entrants to those with 40 footers and up. This was a bit arbitrary since displacement values could really change the nature of any of those boats in terms of speed and carrying capacity, but they felt they had to draw a line somewhere. I don't think the 40 will be much more costly to build, other than a little more plate to purchase at the outset. Brent pointed out all the detailing will be pretty much the same as on the 36, and an engine is needed for any size boats as well as any electronics or other doo-dads you'd have on a boat. To answer your last question about engine placement: the engine I saw freshly installed on a 36 was located under the cockpit floor at its forward end, and it fit very nicely. It was the low profile Isuzu, so this likely helped in keeping its position right behind the companionway steps. Might be different with a very large, tall engine. The engine on our 40 will likely be under the centre cockpit floor because we'll be building an aft cabin version, and should have its own "engine room" like a Whitby 42 by Brewer, or at least easily removed side-acccess panels. As to comfort at sea, both the 36 and 40 are moderate displacement boats and I think would fare comparably in rough sea conditions. Only a test offshore will really tell, of course, so I'll let you know! Alex Christie From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:08 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? Jim has a good point about keeping it simple. The only thing I'd add is that with what I've seen in Brent's book, you can make alot of the things you'd normally buy, so building them for a larger is not a problem. Even with the larger sails and winches, you can do very well if you are a good scrounger and keep your eyes peeled for good quality used items. If you want to buy off the shelf, then sticking with the smallest boat which suits your needs is the quickest way to get afloat and start having fun. Keeping it small and simple is definitely Brent's way, even if the odd duck who builds one of his boats is bent on complicating things! But customization to your own tastes is also what these boats can be as well. Each boat I've seen really reflects the personality of the owners. Alex Christie From: "Larry Doyle" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 2:51 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Size Michael, Just a note on the speed difference between a 36 and a 40. The calculation for theoretical speed of a displacement boat is 1.34 * sqr(LWL). So, a 36's calculated speed would be 1.34 * sqr(29)= 7.2 knots and a 40's would be, and I guessed at the 40's LWL because I don't have it, 1.34 * sqr(35) = 7.9 knots. Of course, this assumes the boat has enough propulsion energy to drive it that fast. Larry Doyle From: "mat_man22" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 5:14 pm Subject: Re: origami cat-Wharram Hi Gary Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' These pictures at bottom of page show profiles the best: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/setup.html http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/glasswork.html I think it would have to make it out of (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with epoxy. 3/8" BCX pine was used for this 20' by 6' boat. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/articles/flyaway/index.htm The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. I have access to number of books and webs sites that have study type plans. I think I could match the rocker. (Hope they would be of scale?) Thanks to anyone that might have an opinion on any of this. Mat From: "Gary Lepak" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 7:21 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram > Wow, I am very impressed. Would you consider selling a set of plans? Not sure what you are referring to here. Plans for what boat? > Do you think that the Swamp Yankee Boats canoe could be scaled up > to make a 24' cruising cat? The max. beam scaled up would be 5.1' No, I don't think it would be a very good cat hull. Not enough rocker for easy turning, and the identical ends are likely to allow pitching. The waterline beam would be wide for a cat too. Better to have a fuller stern than bow. It might make a good proa hull though as proas don't need to tack so the lack of rocker and quickturning ability doesn't matter. > I think it would have to make it out of > (6mm) 1/4" ply. I would like to make it out of (9mm) 3/8 3 ply ACX > pine but would it be too thick? If so, the ply could be > cut at a depth of one ply (1/8") to help bending and filled with > epoxy. I think 1/4" for a 24' cat would be ok, and save some weight which is important in a cat. > The builder ranks this boat as very tender at: > http://members.fortunecity.com/smallboat/swamp/swamptest.html > He used 5.2mm-merantii plywood that is thicker than the 3mm (1/8") > I don't know if might have caused some of his problems. The deep V of the Swamp Yankee is the problem. I could tell by looking at the pictures that it would be very tender. I personally think it is a dangerous boat for anyone not prepared to go for a swim. I think it would make a great litlle outrigger canoe, though, with an outrigger on just one side, Polynesian style. Nothing un-macho about that. As far as the construction technique goes, I don't see it saves any labor for this shape and size and material, over using 4 separate pieces of ply. Then the shape could be varied more to suit the design needs, like having a transom. Personally, for a 24' low budget easy to build cat I would use simple flat-bottomed dory-shaped hulls as used here http://www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/Woods22/Woods22.html Also, Bill Kristofferson has a flatbottomed 24' cat, with or without a centerdeck cabin. http://www.prcn.org/kismet/k24cop.htm If you want a more tortured ply cat hull, you might try Kurt Hughes cylinder mold technique http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ for rounded bottomed hulls. Another speedbuilding round bottomed cat hull technique in foam sandwich is Derek Kelsall's KSS (Kelsall Swift Sandwich) http://www.kelsall.com/ I would start with a design concept (24' catamaran) and then look at what designs and building techniques are out there, rather than trying to make the design fit a certain building techique. I think Origami is great for large metal monohulls, with a lot of curvature but long slender multihulls have other needs and possibilities. You might want to try posting your questions on the yahoo multihullboatbuilder mail list to get some input from other builders and wouldbe builders about different techniques. My apologies to the metal boatbuilders for being so far off topic. Gary Lepak From: Gord Schnell Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 8:51 pm Subject: 40' Brent Swain This message was directed to Alex. I hope he won't mind if I add my thoughts. I am building a 40'. Owners of 36' boats who have toured the 40' are generally amazed at the extra space. Since she has not yet been to sea, I can't comment of the speed or sea-kindliness. The engine straddles the aft portion of the keel beneath the pilothouse floor. I have not seen a 36' with sufficient room under the floor to accommodate an engine. Gord Schnell From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Mat, I haven't heard of Swamp Yankee Boats so I don't understand your comparison. The Rhino demo shuts down automatically after 24 hours, I tried that. The real users group is at news.rhino3d.com and the support there is incredible, best of any software product I've ever used. Most of us licensed users are running BETAs. McNeel starts the beta process almost as soon as a new product is released for the next version. We do this because our experience has been that a Rhino beta is more stable than most major releases from other companies, AND we get to use new features that save us time and money right away! Rhino might look pricey compared to say a word processor. Most people however compare it favorably to so called 'professional' software that typically costs at least 5 to 10 times as much. They are also very fair, those of us that bought the 1.1 upgrade got Version 2 for free! I find the best price I can but when it is good stuff I bite the bullet and go for it. Gary H. Lucas From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Sun Jan 27, 2002 10:14 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram Hey, I'm not a boat designer I am a machine designer, big difference! All I am doing is playing. I took a look at the Swamp Yankee Canoe photos. From my playing I would say Brent's method works best on long deep hulls with a narrow beam, like this canoe. This shape would be quite easy to model in Rhino, especially because both ends are the same. The lines of that canoe don't look particularly fair. I think a few hours with Rhino and the designer could have gotten a better looking boat. The canoe also illustrates one of the big advantages of metal. The fastening system (welding) is inherently much easier to make smooth joints than all that putty nonsense. Gary H. Lucas From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 4:51 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat I haven't had time to study Brent's work in detail, but I have some experience with developable surfaces, and have posted two illustrations showing how an origami boat might be developed at http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=33fcd65e03d593710abf5050db 5ba560 &threadid=248 (you have to open .zip files, but it's not a big deal). A hydrostatics plug-in for Rhino and other support for boat design & lofting is available at http://www.basline.com/rhinoplugin/ Sounds interesting what you're doing....good luck! Stephen Ditmore From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 7:43 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram If you play with http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~fsinc/yachts/spreads/fred.htm you'll find that you want a much higher prismatic coefficient for a catamaran than for a canoe. I've heard that the Woods designs are good performers. Stephen Ditmore From: "lars_doyle" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am Subject: Specs for Swain's boats Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's sailboats. Also, line drawings of the boats would be nice. Larry Doyle Tue 1/29/2002 From: "mat_man22" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:33 am Subject: Re: origami cat-Wharram Thank you Gary Lepak, Gary Lucas and Stephen Ditmore, for taking the time to point out the shortcomings of my ideas and pointing me in the proper direction. It is great to learn from experience and sure is a lot more fun than making big mistakes. Sorry for the double posting. I am not sure why Yahoo is holding my posts for many hours. Gary Lepak, Sorry that I did not recognize you from web presence at: www.multihullboatbuilder.com/workshop/ThreeBoats/ThreeBoats.html and your many contributions at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/multihull_boatbuilder/ I am working under many of the same constraints that you have had in the past and find you ideas very enlighting. If I remember correctly Derek Kelsall's KISS originated with the developed ply Tornado Cat (As described "Gougeon Brothers on BC"). This racing class is considered very fast even if it is over 20 years old. http://www.index.co.za/collins/collins_p13.html Kelsall is the only one that I am aware of that has developed this concept into larger cruising designs. Are there others? I would be most interested in ply construction. Dudley Dix seems to be king of tortured plywood in the mono world but doesn't have a good ply cat. http://dixdesign.com/ Wharram's latest Tiki designs don't have much development. http://www.icon.co.za/~beejay/nam2.htm Thanks Mat From: "alex_christie" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 4:37 am Subject: Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36) --- In origamiboats@y..., "lars_doyle" wrote: > Could someone post the specs for the three sizes of Swain's sailboats. In answer to your request, I have cut and pasted Brent's response to the same question from awhile back. I don't know the exact details of the 27 or the 40, though, so perhaps Brent might fill these in. I don't have lines drawings myself, but will look into this. ---Alex "The 36 is 35 ft 5 inches overall, 29 ft waterline, 5ft 10 inch draft with the fin keel, 4ft draft with the twin keels , 17,280 lbs empty, full depends on how much of a packrat one is. 5700 lbs keel weight,(4500 lbs lead ballast, 1200 steel ) Most people go for a 46 or 47 ft mast stepped on deck. The 31 footer is 31 ft overall, 26 ft waterline, 3500 lbs lead ballast , 4500 lbs total keel weight, 4ft draft twin keels , 4ft 6 inch draft single long fin keel. Most people go for a 40 ft mast stepped on deck . Both boats have 3/16th inch hull plate , 1/8th inch deck, cabin cockpit and rudder plate, 1/4 inch keel plate and 1/2 inch on the bottom of the keel." From: "Larry Doyle" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:14 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Specs for Swain's boats (31 & 36) Alex, Thank's for the quick response. I found the post you referenced several days ago. However, it doesn't give all needed data. For instance here is the specs from an add for plans for a sailboat kit I found on the net: L.O.D. 10.03 m 32' 11" L.W.L. 8.13 m 26' 7" BEAM 3.66 m 12' 0" DRAFT 1.22 m 4' 0" DISPLACEMENT 10,000 kg 22,000 lb BALLAST 3,400 kg 7,500 lb AUX PWR 20 - 33 hp These specs were then followed with several line drawings showing the side, top and a sample interior layout. Something like this would be very helpful in deciding which set of plans to purchase. Larry Doyle From: Richard Payne Date: Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:02 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines When I built Nekeyah (36' , 12 ton, long keel ) I fitted a brand new Volvo MD 17 C . After six years, 1000 hours and numerous problems I removed it and repowered with a 3 cylinder Yanmar and am very happy with the Yanmar after another six years and 1000 hours. Maybe the newer Volvos are better but I certainly would not have one again. Yachties that I have met in Australia generally have described Volvo to me as "the green death" but I have not heard a bad word about Yanmar. Having said that, the best way to find a suitable engine is to ask around, it's a great topic of conversation over a beer or two! One thing that is worth doing if you buy one of the modern high revving motors is to gear it down as much as possible. About 18 months ago I changed the ratio from approx. 2:1 to approx. 3:1 and went to a slightly larger and much coarser prop. Performance with the new set up is much better in every way. If you can afford it, using rubber mounts and a Scatra cv joint and thrust block really isolates the engine noise from the hull. I have seen VW Kombi and Beetle drive shaft cvs used for this purpose also. Regards, Richard. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:05 pm Subject: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or calling him if you have too). Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ could be adapted to multihulls. And note, the people who used to build "FastWater" origami boats in B.C. have moved to Florida and are now building origami catamarans. Their web site is http://www.sailtechdesign.com/ Stephen Ditmore From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:26 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat-Wharram I think Malcolm Tennant at http://www.tennantdesign.co.nz/ also offers tortured plywood designs. From: "Gary Lepak" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 6:27 pm Subject: origami cat-cylinder mold ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ditmore, Stephen" > For some reason I don't see much about it on his web site, > http://www.multihulldesigns.com/ > but check out Kurt Hughes' "cylinder molding" technique (by e-mailing or > calling him if you have too). Basically, cylinder molding, CM, developed from tortured plywood to get a fuller hull shape with more displacement. The idea is to make two hull halves on a curved mold where every frame is the same shape. It is not exactly a cylinder, but more of a "j" shape with the straight part becoming the topsides. The curved part is not quite as round as in the letter J. The skin is made of 2 or 3 layers of 3 or 4 mm ply vacuum bagged together with epoxy. The molds are set at nearly the same level. The curve of the stem and rocker are cut out and then the two pieces are wired together along the keel and tortured into shape. It is a bit tricky to get it symmetrical, as it always wants to pop to one side or another to relieve the stress. I bought Kurt's video which shows the method in detail actually building a 40' tri. Definitely watch the video before choosing this method. Check out this link of a 30' Kurt Hughes cat built this way http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jdory/boat.htm#Building > Also, as I've said before, I think the method used at > http://www.by-the-sea.com/stillwaterboats/ > > could be adapted to multihulls. I couldn't find much detail of the exact method here, just the vague description of it with no pictues. Is there more about it somewhere else? The hull shapes look nice, with flatter bottoms than what I've seen on other tortured kayak/canoe designs. Thanks for the links, the Fastwater one is interesting too. Gary Lepak From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:46 pm Subject: Re: engines The consistent response to enquiry on marine diesels here is Yanmar, Kubota and in larger engines, the Isuzu. 3:1 reduction makes sense given the higher rpm. Helpful comment: thanks. I have just found a 19D X 21P Osborne stainless prop that fits a shaft I scrounged. The prop came at the right price. Just working on the math for reduction. rt From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:35 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines Just a thought rt, but Dave Gerr's Propellor Handbook seems like the right source for tables you might need for working out the right reduction. Alex From: "pvanderwaart" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 5:51 pm Subject: Re: origami cat-cylinder mold I sailed on a Hughes-designed, cylinder-molded cat that is a day- charter boat in Bermuda. It was very impressive. The cylinder mold is supposed to be a simplification of the constant camber system. This patented system was supposed to simplify the construction of light weight boats through the purchase of laminated panels made up on a torus-shaped form. Unfortunately, the premise that the constant camber panels would be cheaply available from a full-time panel-making enterprise was never realized. Be that as it may, if you are interested in a home-built multihull, the Jim Brown-John Marples designs are worth a look. www.searunner.com. As for oragami methods, I have not worked at it, but I am a little dubious. Most multihull designers want a long waterline for speed, but short overhangs to reduce pitching. This is hard to do in panel material without cutting the panels. Peter From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Jan 30, 2002 8:35 pm Subject: Re: How much steel? The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows Hull- 2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate 1-4x8 ft x 3/16th Decks cabin etc 10- 4x8 x 1/8th 1-6x12x1/8th Keel(s) 1-5x12x1/4 1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl Twin Keels leading edges 2-3ft6"x2"shaft Single 5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness ) Twin keel supports 4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths Deck stiffners 10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar 16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe Ballast 3500 lbs lead . For the 36 it's as follows 2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate 1-4x8x3/16th plate 3-5x10x1/8th" 5 -4x8x1/8th" pl 1 -6x20x1/8th" 1-8x12x1/4 inch plate 10- 1" x1"x20ft angle 14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft 1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6 inces longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid shaft leading edges of the twin keels . Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe 16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe 4500 lbs of lead ballast When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of the clips . Brent Swain From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 12:38 am Subject: Re: engines Alex, thanks. I loaned out one of my Gerr books out that has a chapter on props--waiting for it to return. In the mean-time--need to trim this prop down as per the section on props in Brents book. Will borrow a plazma to cut it down once the rest of the math comes together. rt From: "Larry Doyle" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:37 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: How much steel? Brent, Thanks for the list of steel needed for the 31 and 36. It's exactly what I needed. Larry Doyle From: "aklove2u" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 3:38 am Subject: main hatch dimensions I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa. and would like to avoid adding a cupola in order to accomodate the size of the main hatch I see on most swain boats. I am interested in Moon Ravens round or at least oval hatch and was wondering if they or a friend of theirs could send me the dimensions of their hatch and any other info related to it. such as wether it opens fully or is blocked by the cockpit seats, how far from the cockpit floor is it, cockpit well width to accomodate this type of door and wether they find it comfortable to get in and out of at sea and on the hook. If anyone else out there has any good ideas for a one piece solid hatch that would fit this boat without adding anymore to the top of the pilot house please let me know. You can post messages ant this site or send to the address below. Greg WIJNANDA@H... QQQQQ From: "alex_christie" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 6:52 am Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions Greg, I don't know if this'll help, but I've just added another photo to the photo album "Carl's 36" called "Companionwayhatch.jpg" and this shows his hatch configuration. It doesn't sound exactly like what you wish to do, but it may yield some ideas. This bottom of the hatch door appears to clear the cockpit seats. While the door is one piece, there appears to be a sliding hatch on top. I don't think this would be nearly as watertight a situation as with the regular Brent Hatch, of course. Alex From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 1:27 pm Subject: Scandinavian version of Origami? Is this a Scandinavian version of Origami? http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html The software looks interesting, especially for Mac users. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 2:58 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cat-cylinder mold As applied to multihull construction I see it being analogous to sailmaking. Imagine you're going to scarf together 12 sheets of plywood along their long edges to form an 8' x 40' (allowing for the scarves) foot panel. Before cutting the scarves you trim each long edge like a sailmaker trims panels of sailcloth, giving each long edge some curvature... Stephen Ditmore From: "evanmoonjunk" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 7:06 pm Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions Hi Gang, the hatch on Karls boat is a regular door with the part on top that flips up and hinged forward like a cabin top hatch. He also did not want the cupola, so the alternative was either a sliding hatch or flip....Evan From: "carlmbentley" Date: Thu Jan 31, 2002 8:01 pm Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions --- In origamiboats@y..., "aklove2u" wrote: > I'm currently building a 36' Swain Bilge keeler in Port Townsend, Wa. your city caught my attention. ever heard of brion toss the rigger ? he's from port townsend i believe. if so what's your opinion, just curious. -carl From: "lars_doyle" Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 1:07 am Subject: Swain boats on the East coast Are there any Swain boats on the East coast? Larry Doyle From: "cdbarry12" Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 1:25 am Subject: Anyone going to IBEX I'll be at IBEX this year (www.ibexshow.com), especially session 505. Say hi if you see me. From: Richard Payne Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 5:56 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite. Am playing with the idea of removing the steel deck and cabin from Nekeyah, raising the freeboard and building a flush deck and deckhouse from marine grade aluminum. Should result in a drier, lighter and roomier boat. I expect to provide a flange of stainless to bolt the aluminum deck to, and use appropriate insulation between the aluminum and the stainless. Have any of you had any experience with this form of composite construction? I would be interested in your comments. Regards, Richard. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 1:13 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite. You should look into using a "detacouple" - a bar of aluminum and a bar of steel fused together using an explosive. You can then weld to both sides. But I agree that it can also be done using an insulating material and mechanical fasteners, esp. if you also use 5200, Sikaflex, or similar. Stephen Ditmore From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines Practical Sailor just did an interesting article on diesel engines. The point was made that Yanmars are kind of rough running, but they have a huge market share. If they were major trouble the big boat builders would drop them like a hot potato. Gary H. Lucas From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Stephen, I can't get your links to work. Is the URL too long for the page causing the problem? Gary H. Lucas From: Richard Payne Date: Fri Feb 1, 2002 10:04 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: main hatch dimensions You can have both sliding and hinged hatch in one if you mount the pivots on dinghy mainsheet carriers on appropriate track attached to the cabin top. You just have to lift the hatch a little to clear the front lip before you slide it. The end of the hatch furthest from the pivot has nylon guides which once the hatch is lifted a little to allow travel, slide along the coaming so that the hatch cannot twist sideways and jam on the tracks. The hatch has gaskets which seal with the coaming. I have used this with a hinged cabin door opening inwards but the gasketing of the door is not too good and it leaks if it cops green water. The door's top edge has holes which engage with pegs on the lip of the hatch, which automatically lock it shut when the door is closed. I welded the whole thing out of 6 mm alloy. After saying all this, I must admit that the only time I open the hatch is to get large items of gear in or out. Otherwise we all just duck on the way in or out ! Regards, Richard Payne, Nekeyah. From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 2:02 am Subject: Re: engines Will try to look up the article in Practical Sailor. All reports in this locale are that Yanmar is good. rt From: Richard Payne Date: Sun Feb 3, 2002 9:00 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re:steel/aluminium composite. Have never heard of detacouples, will check it out. Thanks, Richard. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 1:18 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: origami cat Sorry. For my zip files go to http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/ click on "Boatbuilding," then on "Origami Steel Yacht Construction." For Baseline software go to www.basline.com Stephen From: "lonedamnwolf1" Date: Mon Feb 4, 2002 1:59 pm Subject: design for catamaran Hello everybody, I have really enjoyed the responses generated by my cat question.One measure of wisdom is knowing when, figuratively, to call a plumber! I think I need someone who can design the thing for me. For money and fame. Do any of you have an interest in doing it? Or can you recommend somebody? I can build it myself, but the design part is more than I have time to conquer. I understand the concepts, but the nitty is pretty gritty. And CAD gives me migraines. James Floyd From: "robert44654" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 7:26 pm Subject: improvements??? I like your concept of origami construction. It is a real boon for the amatuer builder. Your hull underwater though is rather ugly,not that it matters that much, however why haven't you tried to make underwater slits vertical to fair up each half instead of a long horizontal slit underwater? you may have to make a few more welds but the underwater profile could approximate a rounder hull. It also may allow a lighter boat design, especially in alumimum. also, do you have any experience with i beleive the product is aluminite, a "welding compound" that must have a large percentage of zinc in it (specific gravity is over 6 ). I have seen it demonstated at Farm Science review. A hole in an aluminum can is repaired with a propane torch. Seems easy to use, even on light guage alumimum, and they say in their brochure that it can be used in boat fabrication. can your design be used to fabicate a boat of aluminum with 1/2" aluminum plate for the hull or is it to thick to work with? I am interestd in seeing in person a boat built to your design. Anyone who has one willing to show it? Also of those who have a boat of Brent's design how is the performance? How high can you point, does it heel a lot? boat speed (especially in light air)? Again Brent, we amatuer boat builders salute you for your efforts! From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 11:44 pm Subject: Re: improvements??? Vertical slits would be impossible to keep fair. I've seen it tried and the result was an abortion with hard ridges at each seam, which would greatly increase the drag of a boat if done underwater. You can use the method as long as you continue the chines right to the ends of the boat, avoid any twist in the plates , and give up the conic ends.The French do this at Meta and call it the "Strongall process" Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Feb 6, 2002 11:51 pm Subject: Re: main hatch dimensions Moon Raven's wheelhouse measures 10 inches off the cabintop. Your taller wheelhouse will give you a lot more room . Having 3 inches more slope to the aft end of the wheelhouse will also make your hatch a lot easier to get in and out of without the cupola . Moon Raven's hatch opens almost the full 180 degrees . You'll get used to almost anything ,over time. Putting a lifting or sliding hatch on top would be a mistake , destroying the basic simplicity and watertight integrity of a single door. Brent Swain From: robert anthony Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? brentswain38 wrote: Thanks for the response! Then can you use 1/4" aluminum plate to construct your design? (If you have to have the chines all the way to the end of the boat it really isn't an orgami boat.) And to anyone with experience or knowledge, I pose the question can you use alumimite? ( The welding material melts at about 600degrees Fahrenheit, doesn't require a lot of skill to use ( as aluminum welding does) however it would put dissimmilar metals in contact with each other. The weld is actually stronger than the aluminum plate. I was thinking if you could leave a small depression on the outside of the boat in the weld butt joint you could fill the valley in with epoxy offering protection to the joint from the corrosive effects of seawater.) What do you think? From: robert anthony Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 3:01 pm Subject: metal suppliers I have looking on the internet, and have difficultly finding suppliers of plate steel 8' by 36' that is wheel abraided and zinc coated. How/ where would you find suppliers in the midwest area? From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 3:26 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? Anthony, The alumimite is something like solder, it is not a fusion weld like regular welding. A weld harder than the base metal is a source of cracking under stress. If you price the material I think you will find it would be VERY expensive for an entire boat. The ADVANTAGE of a metal boat is that it can be welded, and the welds are very strong and leakproof. Aluminum welding is NOT more difficult than steel welding, it is somewhat different. Large aluminum structures are best welded with a Mig gun, which is quite easy to use. When you are welding out of position, vertical or overhead, aluminum is EASIER than steel, the molten metal weighs so much less than steel it has less tendency to drip or droop. This is not like sex, there is NO substitute for skill when doing some things! Gary H. Lucas From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:38 pm Subject: Re: improvements??? One of my 36 footers is being built in Nanaimo using 1/4 inch aluminium.No problem. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:42 pm Subject: Re: metal suppliers This has been a problem in the US, but no problem in Canada. The only place we have been able to find wheelabraded plate in the US so far is Farwest Steel in Eugene Oregon. All I can suggest is get on the phone and phone all the suppliers in your area. We have had to use 8by20 plates sometimes, but it's tricky getting the midships seam fair. In the UK Pickels in Wales is the only source that I'm aware of. Brent Swain From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Thu Feb 7, 2002 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? I think it's fun to speculate about different ways to put a boat together { Aluminite or glue or sticky tape] but I doubt that any of us can afford that kind of a mistake. Unless you going to manufacture a slew of boats to recoup your losses I believe it's a mistake, maybe even fatal, to be innovative. After all, all you can do is save a few dollars on a very large investment in money and labor. I would not put anything into or on a boat that someone else had not proven. The people in the small boat group are the ones to experiment , they can throw away their mistakes. Doug Pollard From: David Allen Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 4:31 pm Subject: Re: improvements??? a major problem with using aluminite is that the aluminum must be above the melting point of the rod. for a soda can, that's not much of a problem. for 1/4" plate it's a major problem. iron doesn't conduct heat very fast, which is why you can forge one end of a rod at red heat while holding the other bare handed. aluminum though is an excellent conductor of heat. you would need to heat the entire plate to nearly the melting point of the rod. getting that much metal that hot can cause a lot of problems. da From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Fri Feb 8, 2002 11:53 pm Subject: Re: improve-advantage of origami I am building as a hobby. There are no pressing time lines and it is fun to experiment. Much of the joy comes from doing something with my kids and finding out what they like to learn. That said, when it comes to stuff like welding the seams of the steel hull; I opt for the the time proven fast freeze arc welding electrodes like 6010 (DC) and 6011 (AC) for positional welding. These proceedures keep all the ferrys, barges and tug boats together that we depend on. Innershield has become accepted in shipyards now. It is very fast and is effective but difficult to justify the cost of the equipment for building one boat. Industry uses wire feed for aluminium boats for good reason: it too is fast and effective. Speed can reduce distortion. Not such a drawback for the origami builder. Another advantage of origami is that as you weld longditudanally you create compound curves. I have measured the effect on my 36' hull and find it very pleasing. The challenge of welding transverse frames is the inevitable humps and hollows that form sooner or later. Anyone who has paddled a Coleman plastic canoe accross a lake will attest to the extra effort it takes to propell a vesssel with hollows in the hull. The drag is devastating when compared to a rigid well formed canoe body. It is still fun to experiment, albeit with the approach that it is more fun when you can find out what works and do more of it. rt From: "brentswain38" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 10:55 pm Subject: Re: improvements??? To suggest that over 100 very successful boats which have been built , and have survived everything from circumnavigations ,to the northwest passage , to pounding on lee shores on everything from a Fijian coral reef to the west coast of the Baja in eight foot surf , to collisions with everything from steel barges to freighters ,is as naive as telling a retuning astronaut that the world is flat and that if he believes otherwise, then he is definitly wrong. If none of us had been prepared to improvise, we'd still be living in caves . Those who discourage improvisation and try to discourage those of us who seek a way to make life easier for others , while at the same time enjoying the benefits gained through improvisation ,are cowardly parasites , sponging of the efforts of others , while citicizing those very efforts. The French have been using origami style techniques to commercially produce very successful metal yachts since the late 70's .Tell them it won't work.You just may be naive enough to do it. Sticking dogmatically to methods of building which are a century out of date needlesly hangs a huge millstone around the necks of cruisers, and keeps metal boatbuilding in the dark ages . Brent Swain From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Sat Feb 9, 2002 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? Hi Brent, Seems to me your a bit touchy about orgami construction. Had you bothered to take a close look at my e-mail you would have seen that it was in reply to using Aluminite to weld seams. As far as I am know this process is unproven and I stand by my statement that someone who can bear the cost of a failure should do it with the idea of making money by the sale of this product which would then be a proven product. As to orgami construction I am considering it for my next boat and that is why I am in this group. To my mind I have done nothing but send an e-mail offering sound and healthy advice, for which you have attack me personally. As to my being a cowardly parasite all I can say is, I am quite willing to send you my address privately so you can come see me or I'll meet you half way. If your feeling froggy Jump!!! Douglas Pollard From: Jim Phillips Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:15 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? Yeah, Brent, way to go. These parasites shouldn't even be on our group, sucking on our positive vibes. Go away, Duggy, and criticise others. We don't people of your ilk. Cheers to the innovators (and King Brent!), Jim From: robert anthony Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 11:51 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? I am glad to see all the discussion. I think this is healthy. I would like to add my thoughts to the discussion. First, I have not welded a boat before and don't trust my welding abilities to trust my life to my welding yet. I probably would have someone help me build a metal boat that is an experienced welder. I have no stake in aluminite , but the product looks easy to use, and requires no investment in equipment as most people already have a propane torch. The "welding" material doesn't have to be heated that hot and seems at the very least as a product that could be used for repairs in remote areas. It also maybe useful to construct an aluminum dingy (this is not my endorsement for this use). Yes the material probablely would cost a lot more than aluminum welding rods, but you don't need to buy a MIG welder and it can be done in the open air. I appreciate the comment about the local stress this could put on the aliuminum plate. Could be a problem that I didn't consider. Again I commend Brent. Guys this guy is offering his advice for free . He in my opinion has the cutting edge of ideas in amatuer metal boat building. He has tried many other ideas. Most of us haven't. From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 5:24 pm Subject: improvements List, Because some think me a coward for saying that the one boat you build in your life time is not the boat to use unproven methods on, I'm writing this to show where I'm coming from. I was not talking about Origami nor do I have anything against new welding methods as long as their proven. In 1978 I was part owner in a medium sized Machine Shop. We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. Most of what we did was for NASA Langley in Virginia {research and development}. One of their engineers and I were looking at a sailboat we were building and he said, She would be pretty built of molded plywood and varnished.. We worked in metal not wood so I said how about building out of thin aluminum strips glued together like cold molded plywood. The guy was a mastics Engineer and jumped on the Idea, saying the technology was available. I was skeptical not having knowledge of glues and mastics. He convinced NASA to do some research in the method. They were not willing to build a boat as they felt the GAO[ gov. watchdog would frown on building boats for the employees to play with] So they had us build panels by this method, concave, convex flat and etc. A couple of million dollars { I suspect] went into testing. The upshot was that water penetrated the mastics, corroded the aluminum and there was delaminating. The building method was expensive and difficult but a boat built by this method would be strong and almost impossible to repair. This was a project that could have made money but it failed. I felt bad that so much had been spent on a bad idea but NASA was very happy with the project as they now had reams of data on this method. I am told it was under consideration to be used in hulls for flying boats. Suppose I had built myself a boat out of these materials. I would have had a huge investment in time and labor in a boat that in fifteen to twenty years might have been a pile of junk. It is great fun to be innovative in area's where failure can be backed up by failsafe methods or just taken off the boat and changed. A lot of really good Idea's have come out of this kind of thing. It's a great thing to want to be an engineer or inventor but to sail around the world in your own home built boat requires a certain amount of tunnel vision to the exclusion of all other distractions. My preference is to go sailing. Doug Pollard From: "iprokopiw" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 7:47 pm Subject: Re: improvements Just thought I would add a quick note in support of Doug. The origami technique is innovative, but it was an adaption of proven techniques of welding, etc. To risk your life (and those of rescuers) on a welding or joining technique in critical ares of a boat without any knowledge of the subsequent physical properties of the joint is irresponsible. Igor Prokopiw From: "pvanderwaart" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 8:19 pm Subject: Re: improvements >We built a few Work Boats for the Chesapeake Bay watermen and a couple of shallow draft sailboats of aluminum. Wolf Trap 30's? A point about innovation. Although it is difficult to forsee every aspect of a major innovation, they don't all pose the same sort of risks. The origami method for boats doesn't require any unusual engineering of the structure as I understand it. Once it has been demonstrated that the construction process goes smoothly, there isn't much doubt about whether the boat will be ok. Strip building from aluminium is something else. I never thought of that. Peter From: "brentswain38" Date: Sun Feb 10, 2002 10:27 pm Subject: Re: improvements I repeat, over 100 of these boats have been buiult, and all have been well proven successes despite many torture tests . It's not anything new or experimental Most people would rather go cruising than spend years on grosly outdated building methods. Brent Swain From: "phillipdallen" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 12:10 am Subject: Boats-of course I don't mean to butt in, however, I've lost the thread (I think). Are you discussing the Origami design (concept) or the method of joining the various parts involved? I am considering building a boat and for that reason, am reading this and other forums. The Origami concept seems to be at the top of my list...at present. To me, it appears to be simple and strong. I will read and otherwise study the whole idea a lot more before I jump into it. I will never start without seeing an Origami boat (preferably under construction) first hand. This will have to wait 'till the viewing becomes practical...as I live in Arkansas. In the meantime...more study. Anyone wishing to help or just stick in their oar is invited to contact me via email. Thanks to all, Phillip Allen From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 9:48 am Subject: A measure of moderation As moderator I will jump in here, pull back the reins, and note that it appears that there may have been some confusion over the intent of recent messages, and now must attempt to iron out the kinks so as to douse the flames of misunderstanding. I think both Brent and Doug were saying very similar things (correct me if I'm wrong), that there is a time and place for experimentation, and 1000 miles from shore is not that place. I think Doug mentioned that testing a new, unproven method (alumimite brazing rods) on a low-cost, near-shore vessel such as a dinghy would be the right way to go, rather than investing megabucks on a potential failure. Ie, "innovate, but small-scale at first". Brent's boatbuilding technique is an innovation in itself (he's been branded a "Heretic" in more traditional steel boatbuilding circles), but now has its own tradition. It is interesting to ponder the idea that every tradition was once an innovation, isn't it? It is only a question of how many people within a group have adopted the innovation in order to turn it into a convention or tradition. Sociologists have all sorts of fun studying this stuff. So, to reiterate a little, I suggest that on the one hand, I don't think Doug meant that exprimentation is bad, just that keeping it reasonably small-scaled while testing would be prudent both for savings in costs and protection of life and limb. Perhaps this is where some confusion began. As a person interested in the Origami method of steel boatbuilding, he is evidently not afraid to try something most people would consider new and unusual. And on the other hand I don't see anywhere Brent was suggesting that Doug himself was a coward (which is what Doug thought, but was not the case from what I can tell). If you re-read the messages, you'll see that his mention of the word "coward" was a general reference to people who wait along the sidelines and don't contribute, then only adopt the innovation when they think it is safe. Of course, caution is a worthy human instinct that has its place the in annals of human survival over the millenia. I believe also that this instinct is well in place for Brent's boats, despite their unusual construction technique. You can rest assured that Brent's survival instincts were operative way offshore with two miles of water below his keel and not a hint of land in sight. Brent developed a new style of boatbuilding in steel, but was also drawing on traditional knowledge of steel's physical attributes and capabilities in order to inform his innovation. Lastly, I should ask all to exercise caution and courtesy in the writing of their posts and refrain from strong words (other-wise known among cowboys as "fightin' words") which can be miscontrued as to whom they were meant to be directed. To not do so jeopardizes the stability of the group's existence as a medium of peaceful and reasoned communication on the subject of these boats. Also, please read carefully what the other writer has said, and if in doubt as to the intent, simply e-mail them for clarification. More often than not, you'll find that things are not as they seem to be. That is, "don't believe everything you read is about you!" With the tendency for people sitting at a computer (sometimes with a time constraint hovering over them) to write off the top of their head their initial thoughts on a subject, then press "send", the internet probably offers the highest possibility for miscommunication over any other medium of communication in this age. Be careful what you say, lest it "blow back" upon you! Alex Christie From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] A measure of moderation Alex Brent and the group, I have felt from the start that this misunderstanding was completely my fault. I realize that it is the task of the communicator to word his writing in such a way as to not be misunderstood. Reading back over the very fist entry I can see lots of room for misinterpretation. Brent I felt your reaction was way to stung but I also realize you must have to defend your ideas and methods all the time from cranks and unconstructive criticism by some who revel in tearing down another kids tree houses. Once more, I was referring to the use of Aluminite in assembling a large boat rather than just a small experiment in boat building. I know almost nothing about the product but I assume it is not really welding but is more akin to soldering or brazing.If it can be proven to make a strong safe joint I will be the first to applaud. I would also like to say that in no way was I trying to put down on or find fault with the person who suggested it as a possibility. {In the fray I've forgotten who it was.} These are the kinds of things we should be talking about, an idea thrown in for others to discuss and build on. It's called brain storming folks and undue criticism can kill and keep these ideas off line. What a shame! We will all lose by that. For my part in this distraction, I am sorry folks. Doug Pollard From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Mon Feb 11, 2002 4:05 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: improvements??? Hi, Brent. Are you saying over 100 boats have been built with Aluminite welds? Stephen From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:11 am Subject: Aluminit Here is where I think aluminite might be the greatest thing to ever come down the pike. Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. As I remember our welder was able to put in a half inch filler weld at 60 inches a minute. He could skip the spots where the aluminite is and you the builder could go behind him and cut out the aluminite. The welder would then weld in these spots. I'm sure your welder will have to weld short sections in different places to keep down warpage. I may be overstating the width of the weld [not sure] but not the 60 inches a minute. Today's equipment may be faster. I don't think the aluminite penetrates the parent metal so the removal of a little of the plate metal should get rid of it. Here's where the rub comes suppose it doesn't and you wind up with cracks emanating from the area where the aluminte was. Probably a metallurgist ought to be consulted on this and a lot of testing done. If it turned out to be doable there would be a lot of piece of mind in knowing it was welded by someone who knew what he was about and the resale value would be a lot higher. Something to think about, nobody keeps a boat forever! Doug Pollard From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:47 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit Doug, You clearly don't seem to understand the issues here. Heating a large aluminum structure to the temperature required to simply melt ordinary solder is VERY difficult. Aluminum conducts heat so well it takes a really BIG torch to even get a spot warm. I used to repair broken aluminum light poles. My 250 amp TIG welding machine could not even begin to get the typical base hot enough to start welding. I had to place the whole thing on a plumbers lead melting furnace and heat it for about 20 minutes or so, until regular solder that melts at about 400 degrees would melt on it. THEN I could get it hot enough to weld on. The pole of course would be hot for 10 feet of its length and you then couldn't touch it for half an hour. Now what do think your chances are of heating something much larger, AND with a shape hat spreads heat even faster? I won't EVEN go into the contamination issues that would screw up any chance of subsequent welding. You need to give it up. Gary H. Lucas From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:56 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit AHHH! I see the light, well nothing beats a trial but a failure. Doug From: robert anthony Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:12 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit I don't think u are right about this one . I don't think you have to heat the whole boat to 600 degrees. The torch is heating the brazing material and directly melts it in addition to the heat that it receives from the aluminum plate. From: robert anthony Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:18 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: improvements Did you make any prototypes or experimental models before you built/ designed your first origami boat? I got your book Brent, thanks for sending it, well worth the money, I'm still thinking what I would want in my ideal boat. From: "alex_christie" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:49 am Subject: A few more photos of Moon Raven Hi folks, I've added 4 new photos of Moon Raven, a 36 footer, to the photos section. The boat had been moved to another location that made some nice shots possible, so I thought I'd take a few fresh ones for the group's interest. I think this boat was built pretty much as close to Brent's plans and book as you can get, so is an excellent example of the type. Alex From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit Robert, If you have ever done any soldering or brazing you will find that nothing sticks until the base metal gets to EXACTLY the right temperature. Too hot is as bad as too cold. The temperature required falls right in a zone between the filler metal being a solid and a liquid. Touching molten metal to a surface that is colder instantly cools it and all you get is a round ball that rolls off. That in a nutshell is the secret to soldering or brazing using any material you can name. I work with electrical systems, most bad solder joints are caused by someone using too SMALL of a soldering iron. If you use a big enough iron the joint heats instantly and the solder flows right in, BEFORE the heat can get sucked away by the wire, which is what causes the melted insulation you often see. Gary H. Lucas From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Aluminit Robert, After reading Gary's post I think he's right. Seems to me we're both whipping a dead horse. Heating the whole boat is probably an exaggeration to make a point but you would have to heat a lot of metal !!. Sounds like Gary is a welder and one thing I've learned over the years is don't argue with the welder they usually know what their talking about. A welder puts up with being burned , breathing smoke and miserable heat in the summertime. A guy has to like what he's doing to do that and I believe people who like their jobs are always knowledgeable. If 600 degrees is the heat requirement for this soldering process it's awful close to the annealing temperature of aluminum A guy could wind up with a dead soft plating. I realize you were only questioning the amount of aluminum to be heated. I just thought I'd take this opportunity to dump my thinking on everyone. From: "dr01allen" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:35 pm Subject: Re: Aluminit > Suppose you cut fit and tacked your aluminum boat together with aluminite, maybe every foot or so. > Now you can call in a really good welder and believe me these guys can be worth the money. He can use his water-cooled wire feeder and a high amperage welder and lay in weld so fast you can't believe it. if you really want to get innovative, you could glue the joints together using a backer plate (glue on the backer plate only, not in the joint) at discreete points along the weld. I have some super glue that will bond to aluminum (for a while at low temps). then call in the welder. as the weld is made, the heat from the weld and the expansion of the metal will break the glue bond to the backer plates and they will fall off. no going back to remove anything. of course it's more expensive than simply clamping the pieces together, but I didn't see cost mentioned as a concern. this might actually be a viable process if you need to cut open then re-seal a watertight or dead space, otherwise.... da From: "dr01allen" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:39 pm Subject: please trim posts pressing -- will highlight all text to the end of the message. pressing the key will then remove it. a couple of recent messages had 3 to 5 lines of comments on top of several pages of yahoo adendum. cleaning up after yourself will save download time and improve readability. da From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Tue Feb 12, 2002 7:08 pm Subject: Re: engines Hello. This is my first post to this group. Really enjoy the "coversation" as it is a topic that interests me a great deal. As far as diesel engines are concerned, I have a bit of experence. I have worked at the dealer and distributor level for 18 years with Kubota, Isuzu and John Deere. It is correct to say that neither Kubota or Isuzu marinize engines at the factory level, John Deere does but these are to large for "our application". One must err on the side of caution as there are a lot of aftermarket units avail & there is correct way and a incorrect way to go about this. I have sold a few used Isuzu's over the years as I've made a bit of a hobby of always having a diesel engine "on the go" in my shed. I keep telling myself that "this one is for my boat", but than.....oh well may be the next one will be. To the best of my knowledge two of these went into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. 2.4 litre, 56HP @ 3000rpm, 520lb, 1.5g/hr 4 cyl. diesels. I have seen these engines go 30,000 hours in 1800rpm gen-set applications, burning aprox. 85 G/hr. At 1800rpm this is a very smooth and comfortable eengine. I hope this is of some help to those out there. P.S. I am allways on the lookout and interested in a semi complete Swain project boat. Best regards. From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:09 am Subject: Re: engines Thank you, that was useful information. I just looked at a number of engines at the Vancouver Boat Show this weekend. The one that impressed me the most was the 35hp Isuzu 3 cylinder model. I wondered why I had not considered buying an engine and making my own manifold from 316 stainless--it looks straight forward enough. I have been looking for somewhere to buy a motor without all the marine stuff on it. With Brent's skeg cooler design it makes things fairly straight forward. Apparently there are 5 companies marinising Kubota engines at the moment. The Isuzu seems to quite rugged and serviceable. Cheers, rt From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines I personally think that 3 cylinder Izuzu is and excellent choice. It is the engine I have though a little larger 45 horse.aprox. Same block I think, mine is just bored a little bigger. This engine really holds up well. Here are a few of my I thoughts on the subject. I never run the engine at anchor while charging batteries and pulling down my refrigerator below 1500 RPM's, At idle speed this engine vibrates a fair amount. I don't believe it is good for the engine or the boat and does not carry the oil pressure it does at higher speeds. I don't believe it's good to run a diesel with no load on it, so I have a 100 amp alternator on it and a large 10 cubic inch automotive refrigeration compressor. These probably put 7or 8 horsepower of load on the engine?? After years running a machine shop and replacing exhaust systems made of stainless I believe plain old hot roll steel holds up better. Seems to me the acid or what ever is in the exhaust eats pin holes in the stainless. Most engine that fail do so because water from the exhaust finds it's way into the engine. I have replaced the exhaust once in 25 years and am now due to replace again. Mine has never leaked but I'm sure it must be getting thin?? The down side is it's thick and heavy. I use a 4 ft long stand pipe, keeps water out of the engine and is a great muffler. In crowded anchorages the loud boats are hated by all. I run my engine about 45 minutes every day to charge batteries and pull down my refer at anchor or at the dock. I think its good for the engine. If you stop and work to replenish your cruising kitty here and there in your travels you will sometime spend long months at a dock. Stuff grows in the fuel tank sometimes even with additives especially in the tropics. I have a electric fuel pump that can act as an auxiliary pump for the engine should the low pressure pump on the engine fail. This pump is hooked through two fuel filters that return filtered fuel to the fuel tank. About once a week at the dock I run this pump about 24 hours. keeps the fuel system sparkling clean. We have lived aboard and cruised 15 years my 12 volt electrical requirements have increased every year. We use no 110 volt electricity except to run a battery charger and electric fans in the hatches when at the dock in hot weather. I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are people on all this but this is mine. Doug Pollard Ps. I use a short stainless flexible exhaust between the stand pipe and the engine. I keep a spare and replace every four or five years. These are about $150 us each all made up with fittings.. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:49 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: engines Practical Sailor just reviewed auxiliary diesels (Isuzu not included). While it finished second to Perkins-Sabre on points, they made it pretty clear in the text that they endorse the Westerbeke. They did not seem to be big on Yanmar. Stephen Ditmore National Network Technologies 301 Rt. 17 North, 9th floor Rutherford, NJ 07070 201-549-4133 From: "Rick Byzitter" Date: Thu Feb 14, 2002 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines Well, if its any consolation the new Westerbeke up to 140HP is a Isuzu. From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:26 am Subject: Re: engines I installed a 2 cylindre Isuzu 2AB1 in the summer of 1996. Excellent engine . It took me to Tonga and back as well as several trips to the Charlottes and back. The only complaint I had was the arrangement for draining the oil pan . It was located on the side of the engine between the mounts and impossible to get at, so I put a street elbow and ball valve on it. The vibration cracked the pan with the weight of the elbow and valve. When I took the pan off I couldn't believe what they had done for a drain plug. It was a gizmo with a male thread going an inch into the pan with a female thread fitting holding it in supported by four legs and using an o ring to seal it against the pan. The arrangement made it impossible to drain the last inch of oil out of the pan . I replaced it with a half of a quarter inch pipe thread elbow welded onto the lowest point of the pan, drilled through and plugged with a pipe plug. One of the problems with an oil leak at sea is that it's impossible to check the oil level at sea with the dipstick on the side of the engine. To alleviate this problem , I welded a 1/2 inch pipe nipple on the front centre of the oil pan at a 45 degree angle with the top of the nipple at the maximum oil level of the engine .This way I can pour oil in the top of the engine and wait till it stops running out the pipe nipple, then screw a pipe cap on and know that I have a full charge of oil in the engine regardles of whether I'm rolling around at sea , or heeled 30 degrees at the time.I welded a washer on the overflow pipe to act as a drip lip, and put a can under it to catch the overflow.It's been so handy that I'd do this right off the bat before installing an engine next time. My stainless sch 40 dry exhaust pipe is 17 years old now and I've had no corrosion problems with it yet. I've noticed that stainless wet exhausts corrode through fairly quickly , but only past the point where you inject water in . My water jacket manifold seems to be corroding a bit too much from the outside.I'm considering making a stainless one given the success I've had with the stainless exhaust . A water cooled manifold is very easy to build . A port Townsend diesel repair mechanic was quoted on the internet at www.metalboatsociety as having said" If everyone went for keel cooling and dry exhaust , we'd have been put out of business years ago" Brent Swain ent into Swain designs. Both of these were C-240 models. Fri 3/15/2002 725 Re: engines rbyzitter2001 Sun 3/10/2002 From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 4:33 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines Brent, I saw you motoring past today from my roof-top here on the island. With your dry exhaust, is it very loud to be on board for hours on end with the engine running? I could not hear anything from my vantage point, and I usually can hear outboards from there. Does your exhaust exit the transom below the waterline to dampen the sound? Alex From: "Rick Byzitter" Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 3:50 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: engines The 2AB is and excellent choice as it is but a 2 cylinder version of the C-240. What this gives you is a reciprocating assembly, i.e.: crankshaft, bearings & pistons, etc. designed for literally twice as much HP. This equates to extreme reliability & long life. As for dry v.s. wet exhaust. After spending the last 18 years repairing, maintaining & overhauling marine diesels in both commercial & pleasure boats, I would have to say the dry exhaust/keel cooled method is the only way to go. Even a perfectly designed wet exhaust still has it's inherent problems. Primarily much more maintenance, back pressure, corrosion damage to the valve train, salt water infiltration in the engine, raw water pump maintenance, "plugging" of the sea strainer, one more through hull fitting, failure of the anti siphon resulting in an engine full of sea water and possible sinking of the vessel. I am not trying to instill paranoia, but these are all things I have seen. Also on a lighter note, I was wandering, does anyone out there have a material list of the steel required for a 36 footer? The company I work for brings a substantial amount of steel for our manufacturing division & I'm curious to know how much better I buy than "Joe the homebuilder". This may be of benefit to some of us "yet to build" our first or second hull. Cheers. From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:36 pm Subject: Re: engines My dry exhaust exits the transom about 8 inches above the waterline. Where it exits I have a stainless elbow to take it below the waterline where a rubber elbow points it aft, about 6 inches below the waterline. I have a rubber flap on the end cut out of the sidewall of a tire ,to stop any following seas from reaching the engine . There is a 1/4 inch hole in the first stainless elbow to act as a siphon break.I eliminated the inside muffler a year ago and it didn't make any difference to the sound of the exhaust .As long as the exhaust is about 6 inches below the waterline it kills all outside sound. Diesel engineers say it would have to go down at least 3 ft before back pressure would become a problem. Brent Swain From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:13 pm Subject: Re: engines Brent, Rick, good info on the dry exhaust and the oil change modifications. I have been stuggling with the pros and cons of a wet vs dry system. I too notice that it is past the water injection that pitting starts to bore through the stainless. One boat in the yard here was set up with a stainless wet system and it rotted out in a little less than 2 years. The motor had also hydrauiliced due to a failure of the rubber flap at the end. The wet mild steel system from before had one lasted for over 8 years. That is only one example to compare. Are you insulating the exhaust pipe beyond your manifold, putting a water jacket on it, or a bit of both? the quote from the diesel mechanic says a lot. Thanks, rt From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Fri Feb 15, 2002 9:12 pm Subject: engines Can one attach some digital pics to posting, is this even possible? Or do I have to open a file in the "Files" section? Cheers. From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 4:32 pm Subject: Outboards This discussion on diesels lead me to seriously consider an outboard. Does anyone out there have an outboard and if so, what are the pros and cons. Thanks From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] engines > Can one attach some digital pics to posting, is this even possible? > Or do I have to open a file in the "Files" section? Cheers. After a virus attack some months back, I removed the attachments feature for group security until the storm passed, but perhaps I'll put it back on for a trial period, and see how it goes, ok? If you want the photo more accessable for future visitors, then post it in the Photos section, which has thumbnail capacity. One can also post to Files, but there is no thumbnail function there. If you want the group to have a look, just post a note to everyone with the name of the album and the name of the photo contained within. Everyone, keep your antiviral software up to date, and don't open an attachment if it doesn't seem right! Alex Christie From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:25 pm Subject: Izuzu Engines I don't know that this is true, but I thought I'd pass it along. I was down at the boat yard today working on my mast. Saw a fellow painting what looked to be a brand new yellow engine. Walked over to see and sure enough it was a new Izuzu. I stood around like a tourist for a while while he ignored me. I could stand it no longer. I asked looks brand new why are you painting it. He looked a little disgusted at me, but answered the factory paint 'is no good so I am putting two more coats on before I put it in my boat. I said bye and walked away feeling like I should have known better than to ask such a dumb question. Thinking back I remembered that my Izuzu was fairly rusty when I took it out and rebuilt it. Maybe the paint is not the best in the world since these engine are built as industrial engines. For any one buying one to put in their boat I would at least ask around about this. Most likely it's not a bad idea to add some paint on any new engine??? Doug Pollard From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit Say da all you want but that's how ships are built. The fitters come along fit the plates and tack them in place. the welder follows later and welds the seams. Say da ! to Newport News ship building and Electric Boat works. Using aluminite is defiantly Da ! though. Doug From: "brentswain38" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 12:55 am Subject: Re: Outboards In my first boat I sailed out to New Zealand using an out board for an auxillary. When I left Juan de Fuca it quit. In Frisco I tried and gave up trying to get it fixed , so windjammed to Nuku Hiva. There I met an outboard mechanic who got it running albeit rather roughly. The top main bearing was shot. I replaced the top bearing in Tahiti and got it running again ( it had quit again on the way there, salt in the ignition)By the time I got to Rarotonga it had quit again. I spent several days getting the salt out of the ignition there, cleared out for New Zealand then went back to the boat to leave. It wouldn't start. About a week out of Raro, it fell calm and I cleaned out the ignition and got it running beautifully. By the time I arrived in New Zealand it wouldn't start , salt in the ignition again altho I had kept it belowdecks the whole time . Outboards have improverd a lot since then, but they still consist of tiny parts and screws made of various electrolycally incompatible metals and are extremely hard to work on. No matter where you mount them they have a tendency to kick out of the water in a swell. They are extremely vulnerable to hitting floating objects.They require you to carry large amounts of very explosive fueland consume a lot more fuel per mile than a diesel.Theey rely on electricity to keep them running, not to compatible with seawater especially when they have to operate in an extremely exposed position. I installed a diesel in New Zealand and the problems with diesel engines since ,have been a fraction of what they had been with an outboard. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:14 am Subject: Re: engines Several friends and clients bought diesels from Detroit diesel Allisson, 30 HP perkins with transmissions rated at maximum 20 hp as a package deal put together by the dealer, and sold as a complete package . The trannys crapped out rather quickly,sometimes in less than 60 hours . They recieved only excuses and no compensation whatever from Detroit Diesel Allison who incidentally supplied the engines for the BC Fastcat Ferries . The ferries have had more than their share of problems. I had warned the government about problems with Detroit Diesel Allison before they built the cats . Make sure the transmission you put on the engine is rated for the full continuous horsepower of the engine, even if they are sold as a package deal, and check the suppliers reputation for warrantee sevice on what they sell. Brent Swain From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:29 am Subject: Engines Hi. Does anyone have any information on the Daihatsu CLMD25 engine? I have bought one that was salvaged from the lifeboat of a wrecked freighter and cannot find any info on the web including the Daihatsu Diesel web page. Best regards, Ted Stone From: Jim Phillips Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:44 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit You're hilarious, Doug. You give me so many laughs in amongst the education. I think he said da, because it appears that those are his intitals. (dr01allen). Daahhhh! Fair winds and as little time in boatyards as possible for everyone! Cheers, Jim. From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Aluminit Holy Cow! Jim, I'm as red as a nun buoy on the wrong side of the channel. Da I beg your pardon. That was the last in a list of the thousand dumbest things I ever did or said Daaahh! Doug From: robert anthony Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:39 pm Subject: sheer lines I pose Brent a question. In your book, how did you know the sheer line is part of an ellipse? Robert Anthony From: "pvanderwaart" Date: Sun Feb 17, 2002 6:47 pm Subject: bilge insulation If y'all don't mind answering a question for a tire-kicker... When you insulate the interior, do you foam the entire bilge? If so, doesn't it eventually get pretty messy? If not, doesn't it collect a puddle? Peter From: "seadog122543" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:16 am Subject: "NUTHIN WONG " I am very interested in the design and building of the "Nuthin Wong " Do you know where I can find more information? John Bridges jgbridges43@h... From: "jim_cl" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:43 am Subject: Re: "NUTHIN WONG " Why not speak to the owner & skipper. I met him last year in St Martin. His email is one of the following (my memory is slipping and I didn't write it down at the time!) chinesejunk@h... chinesejunk@y... I think he should be up around Canada again by now... Cheers, and as little time as possible in boatyards, Jim. From: "jim_cl" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 3:04 am Subject: origami cats G'day all! This is a quick note from an Aussie sailor who is currently land bound but eager to build another boat and get away again. It's interesting to read all your emails, but there aren't so many (any?) from people who are actually building an origami boat. Get away from the boatyard for an hour or two, sit down at your computer and give us all an update on your origami progress. Please. My next boat is currently in the initial planning stages while we get some money together, pay off the house and produce some more crew (aka kids). Have to be leaving in 2006. Anyway, here's a few ideas that I will throw out to you all for constructive comments, return abuse or whatever. The ideas are based on about 35000 miles of offshore cruising as a kid on my parents' 47' steel cutter (half a circumnaviagation before I had to go to high school) and time around the Caribbean on my own 30' steel sloop and a few deliveries to the Med and along the Barrier Reef. I liked the cat deliveries and I'm now hooked on cats, but there were some shortcomings that have to be dealt with (eg. wing deck slamming, central mast clutter, poor windward ability etc) So, here we go with the next boat, an aluminium cat. Origami or not, that is the question, my friends. Some brief notes: 1. 50' LOA 2. 25' BOA 3. 5' individual hull beam. 4. No superstructure on the wing decks, which will be decked with timber planks to allow "percolation" of waves during rough seas. 5. Minimum of 4' (pref. 5') of wind deck clearance. Wing deck can be flush with top of each hull. 6. Very small, protected "cockpit" in each hull sufficient for 2 people with all sheets, halyards and reefing lines. Socialising in port will be on the central deck. 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? 8. Overhung bow to ensure sufficient reserve flotation. Fairly V- ed, knife-shaped bow. 9. Flattish stern to minimise pitching. 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface area, construction time and cost (less welding). 11. Small fixed keel and skeg. Drawing no more than 3', preferably 2'. 12 Integral water tanks in the mini keels. 13. Lee board on the inner side of each hull (one or two?) which will kick up during unexpected groundings - like an external centreboard. (As a steel boat owner, I typically just charge on until we crunch - 9 months last year in the Caribbean without a depth sounder, but yes, we had a good solid steel keel and the waters were usually clear. To the shock of other yachties and our own amusement, we would often toss out a stern anchor and just sail onto the beach in the Bahamas, tie-ing off the bow to a coconut tree. Saved putting the dinghy in the water. But I digress...) I don't want the hassles of a centreboard or dagger board, but want the performance of the lee board and the convenience of minimal draft and being able to run aground. Asthetically, it will be ok as it will be "hidden" on the inner sides of the hulls, under the wing deck. Comments welcome. 14. "Transom" hung rudder which can kick up. Transom can actually be "inboard" by using a false stern to increase waterline length and provide steep boarding steps. Rudder must stick out an inch or so beyond false stern to enable installation of a trim tab on each rudder. 15. Direct tiller steering. Also trim tab steering thru use of a mobile Morse control (or similar) that will move trim tabs. Windvane self-steering goes without saying. Backed up by small electronic autopilot connected to trim tab via Morse control. 16. Propulsion via an outboard in each hull. We detest using the engine unless on a delivery (eg. 8000 miles in the Caribbean and we used 30 litres of fuel for the inboard diesel and 40 litres for the outboard on the dinghy). Ideally a 9.9 HP in an outboard well in each hull in front of skeg. Lower opening of well to be covered with 1" rubber flap that will close when outboard is raised and open when lowered. Longshaft, low RPM and large prop. Have to be able to easily take one out for use on the dinghy. 17. Rig to be unstayed and biplane. Undecided whether to go for wishbone or boom. Various pros and cons for both cases. Will be unstayed because the technology is already here to have a carbon fibre stick that is sufficiently stiff and strong, and similarly priced to an alum mast with all the extra rigging. Without all the normal rigging there is less potential for failure (this is from a person who was 15 years old and at the head of a 40' mast when a shroud snapped and was dumped along with the mast into a retaining wall - various broken bones but that's another story...:). The rig will be biplane because it keeps the centre of effort lower than having one central mast. And structurally it makes more sense to have a keel-stepped mast in each hull rather than just one on the wing deck. 18. Undecided on sails, as to whether to have them hoisted on a track or utilise a sleeve to minimise disturbance around the mast (remember, it will be oversize compared to a "normal" mast in order to make it free standing). Comments, please. 19. A large, aluminium bimini over the central wing deck and hulls. Very close to flat so rainwater runs off into the tanks, but provides little wind resistance. Solar panels to go on top, small fireplace underneath with sandbox. Drop down canvas sides around perimeter for privacy at anchor. Will be ugly but private in port with the sides down. And will sail like a bat out of hell with the sides up, little windage, lee boards down. 20. 6' headroom in each hull. 21. No gas for cooking. Kerosene stove and oven (you might call it parafin depending on where you are from). These are my somewhat unorthodox ideas. Let me know what you think of this crazy down-under sailor. No comments about the tedious topic of multihull versus mono, PLEASE. Tell me something new. On another topic, my old man (supposedly my old sailing instructor, I better have a word with him about what he did or didn't teach me) is still sailing about, being a nautical vagabond on a steel Roberts and having many adventures in his travels about the globe. Some of you may want to read his thoughts on boat design, rig, engines and fitout at: http://www.homestead.com/wallabycreek/wallabycreek.html Fair winds to everybody and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. From: "Douglas Pollard" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 1:23 pm Subject: Going south Hi Y'all, I will be unsubscribing from the list for a few weeks. I am going down to Florida to help a friend get his boat ready for a few years in the Caribbean. I wish I could go with them but this is their adventure. I'm sure I'll save my pennies and fly down a few times and cruise a week or two after they leave. Just in case any of you think you can do without me here, I"LL BE BACK, so rest easy. Doug Pollard From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:57 pm Subject: Re: origami cats I started out using morse cable on the trimtab. It works OK but morse cable is prone to filling up with salt and corrosion eventually. It also sometimes has a limited travel. I've switched to solid rod shaft or sch 40 pipe from the transom 2 ft to one side of the rudder,to under the sidedeck alongside the steering seat. An arm hangs down off hte shaft inside with a linkage to connect it to a jogstick in front of the steering seat. On the outside , the shaft passes through a stuffing box in the transom and has an arm pointing upward with a linkage to a tiller on the trimtab. The best attatchment point seems to be about an inch behind the axis of the rudder to give a slight negative feedback to prevent oversteering .This system should be good for at least 500 years before I have to think about replacing it . On the inside I use an autohelm 800, the smallest one they make . As it only has to power the balanced trimtab, it's all that is needed , there svery little load on it.It's been there for 10 years and thousands of miles with no problems. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:07 pm Subject: Re: bilge insulation DO NOT foam the entire bilge. People who have , have ended up scraping it out when it becomes a soggy mass. Insulating the underside of the floor is easier and keeps the insulation out of the bilge while giving the same insulation value and drastically reducing the amount of condensation. Insulation under the floorboards is removable.Most of my boats have a large built in watertank in the bilge who's top is just below the floor. I recomend hinging the entire floor with a long piano hinge down one side so you can throw a piece of styrofoam down and cloe the lid ( floor ) on top of it. If the foam gets grubby, simply lift the lid and replace it. Foam to the floorboards , but not beyond .Leave the area under the engine and the centre of the space under the wheelhouse foam free. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:12 pm Subject: Re: sheer lines I read in an article on aesthetics years ago that the traditional fife sheer was part of an elipse . Since then I've noticed that the better a sheerline looks, the closer it is to being part of an elipse. I've also noticed that the further it departs from being part of an elipse , the uglier it gets. Brent Swain From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:12 pm Subject: Steel required. Hello again. I have a basic materials required list here for rough costing. I was wandering if you folks could add anything substantial that may be missing. 2x 3/16"x8x36' plate 1x 10 gauge 6x20' sheet 5x 10 gauge 4x8' sheet 4x 10 gauge 5x10' sheet 2x 1/4"x4x12'plate 1x 1/2"x18"x10' plate 300'x1x1x1/4" angle 360'x 3/8x1" flat bar If this is a fairly accurate materials list I can go about getting some costing on this first big step. Does any one know if there are some study plans available? I have Brent's book "How To Build A Better Steel Boat", this has been very informative but I would like to get into this a little deeper. Cheers. From: "Larry Doyle" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:39 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Steel required. I got the following from Brent: The steel list for the basic shell of the 31( hull, decks, cabin, wheelhouse , skeg , keel , cockpit and rudder )is as follows Hull- 2-8ft x 32 ft x 3/16th plate 1-4x8 ft x 3/16th Decks cabin etc 10- 4x8 x 1/8th 1-6x12x1/8th Keel(s) 1-5x12x1/4 1-18" x12ft x1/2"pl Twin Keels leading edges 2-3ft6"x2"shaft Single 5ft 6" shc 80 pipe (1/2 inch wall thickness ) Twin keel supports 4-5ftx21/2"x21/2" angle Stringers 10 1"x1"x1/4 inch angle 20 ft lengths Deck stiffners 10 1 "x 3/8th inch flatbar 16ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 4 20 ft lengths 1 inch galve sch 40 pipe Ballast 3500 lbs lead . For the 36 it's as follows 2-8ft x 36 x 3/16th plate 1-4x8x3/16th plate 3-5x10x1/8th" 5 -4x8x1/8th" pl 1 -6x20x1/8th" 1-8x12x1/4 inch plate 10- 1" x1"x20ft angle 14- 1"x3/8th" flatbar x20 ft 1- 18"x 12 ft x 1/2 " plate leading edges and keel supports are the same as for the 31 ,6 inches longer on the angle irons and 1/2 inch larger on the solid shaft leading edges of the twin keels . Bulwark caps are 4-20 ft lengths of 1 1/4 inch sch 40 pipe 16 ft 2 inch sch 40 galve pipe 12 ft 1 1/2 inch sch 40 galv pipe 4500 lbs of lead ballast When using wheel weights for ballast allow 20% for the weight of the clips . Brent Swain From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:09 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats > -----Original Message----- > From: jim_cl [mailto:jim_cl@y...] > 7. 4 mm alum plate to be NC-cut and then welded using frameless > technique. If necessary, bulkheads go in afterwards? Why aluminum? You spoke of banging into things with a steel yacht (great story, btw!), so why change? > 10. Central 25' of each hull can be semi-circular below the > waterline in order to just buy a standard, off-the-shelf, 5' diam > alum cylinder, cut it lengthwise and then attach the respective > stern and bow sections to the two parts. Will minimise wet surface > area, construction time and cost (less welding). Won't this be somewhat funky? I'm no expert on cats, but isn't there some fairly intense curving that would need to be done? Trying to bend that tubing would be a nightmare! It seems to me that making two really thin and long Swain origami hulls would be a much better way to go. Also, how are you planning on attaching the two hulls to the deck? That's the part that really threw me. I've heard of plenty of epoxy or fiberglass cat construction plans, but no steel ones. That joint is going to need some engineering, IMHO. Not dissin' you here, as someone who is designing an origami/ Van de Stadt-type trawler, I'm all ears as to new construction techniques! From: "jim_cl" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:18 am Subject: Doug's Qs about origami cats Doug, Thanks for your comments. I'm changing from steel to aluminium because I like the strength of steel but dislike the continuous chipping and painting. Alumin gets me the strength (or very close to) but not the rust. The cat I'm going to build will have two very long narrow hulls. The central 25' (maybe only 20') can be straight underwater, with no curves necessary - pointy bit at the front, 25' straight bit in the middle and fuller stern. Shouldn't look funky as this will mostly be underwater. No bending of the tubing is necessary. As for the decks, we have to consider: a) the decks on each individual hull, and b) the central wing deck. The deck of each hull will be alum welded to the hulls, just like a normal steel boat. No leaks, totally watertight with no glued or bolted joints. The cross beams will likewise be made of off-the-shelf alum spars that will be welded into each hull. Each cross-beam will totally cross each of the two hulls in order to achieve the structural integrity required. The wooden planks to allow percolation through the wing deck will be screwed or bolted to a framework of aluminium beams welded to the cross-beams. Two long thin origami hulls may be the way to go. Maybe a hybrid of origami stern and bow and off-the-shelf tubing in the middle? How are you designing your boat? When do you expect to start construction? What are your plans after the Iron Lotus hits the water? Cheers, mate, Jim. From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:54 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Doug's Qs about origami cats > How are you designing your boat? I started with traditional plans from Charles Wittholz, then took the Table of Offsets and plotted them into Rhino 3D to get my hull shape. I think that I'll be able to take the developed plates from Rhino and have the steel CNC'd directly. The rest of the design was done in discreet 3ds max software, to get the true feel of the boat. I'll send you a couple of pics in a separate email; I've got full flythrus of above and below decks, if you're interested. I tried real hard to stick to a canonical origami design, but it seems that I couldn't get the right shape for a trawler. By using more of a Van de Stadt strip method, it increases the welds but gives me the right shape. Also, this being a somewhat larger hull, building it in a cradle makes more sense. I'm planning on starting this summer if all goes as planned. The wife and I figured that this was a perfect excuse to try and get rid of outstanding debt before starting in. Also, I'm finishing up a 20' I/O go-fast modified deep-V, which should be hitting the water in a few weeks. As to the aftermath, probably get the boat wet here in So. Cal., clear out the house for rental, then truck the boat to Houston, Texas to put it in at the edge of the ICW for some glorious cruising and unabashed telling of tall tales! From: "aklove2u" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 6:26 am Subject: ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION I'm glad to see all the discussion going on about this unique boatbuilding process. It says alot about anything when there is this much discussion directed at it, but I think there are two simple points thet everybody is touching on and is very well aware of but are being overlooked. And here they are in order. We all agree that steel is the strongest boatbuilding medium, that we have at the moment realistically, and we all agree that welding is the strongest way of joining a boat built of steel and if a Swain boat is nothing more than these two all agreed upon facts what is the cause of so much turmoil. Two analogies to something we all can relate to. First some of us who own boats but don't cruise extensively also happen to own cars made of steel although, I'm sure some of you have fancy plastic models, which travel at a lot higher rate of speed than any sailboat with other cars, trucks, suvs, and what not traveling at high rates of speed right towards us with a hull/body that is thinner than any part of any steel boat, has far less framing which is also of a smaller guage and how often do we stop to critize the methods employed in building these high velocity death rides. Second the thought process behind a Swain boat, where the strength of the steel, agreed on by all of us as the strongest boatbuilding medium, and the fact that it creates a continous compound curve which is reinforced using longitudinal stringers, can again be compared to this everyday item. Think of a car hood,roof or door for that matter a fairly flat piece of steel that can be bent easily. Now think of what a Swain boat is built like, not the door or roof but those compound curves found along the trunk to quarter panel curve or the curve where the roof starts to curve to bend to meet the doort frame when is the last time anyone dented this part of their car. In closing I pulled together a 36'bilge keeled hull with Brent and my partner in 11 days and can't understand why there are still boats being built by any other method especially considering the designer/architect sails his boat across the Pacific yearly. more than most designers whose office job only allows daysailing and therefore have a considerable lack of the realities of what an offshore cruising vessel needs. Furthermore I cannot think that Brent could ever sleep in his bunk soundly knowing that families are relying on him and his boat to get them through the next storm. Fair winds to everyone. Greg From: "batsondbelfrey" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:54 am Subject: Re: ORIGAMI OR NOT TO ORGAMI THAT IS THE QUESTION > Furthermore I cannot think that > Brent could ever sleep in his bunk soundly knowing that families > are relying on him and his boat to get them through the next storm. I think you meant to add "unless he knew for certain, from his own experience, that his building methods works" :-) At least, that's the impression I get from the rest of your posting. Regards Robert Biegler From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:39 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Engines Thought these engines might be of interest to someone (esp. East Coast or European types). http://www.sabb.no/engelsk/lifeboats.htm Stephen Ditmore From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:57 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats Regarding #18 below, I own a small Catapult catamaran with the original (Laser-like) sleeve rig. The manufacturer subsequently changed to the current unsleeved full-battened rig, which I would have to buy now if I wanted to race one design. My understanding is that the multihull community in general has concluded that rotating wing masts are superior to sleeves because: 1. The leeward side of the sleeve typically pulls too flat for the air to remain attached. 2. A roachy full-battened mainsail is aerodynamically superior to a triangular one. (Note: the bigger the roach the more compression on the battens, pushing them into the mast. Having a Harken Batcar or similar at the mast end of each batten keeps them from jamming.) 3. While free standing rigs have merit on some monohulls, multis have such a wide shroud base that you might as well use it. Stephen Ditmore From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:04 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats Note also: You can stay a "biplane" rig by staying to the inside of each mast, forming an "X", and putting a compression strut between them at the height of the hounds (where the shrouds attach to the mast, i.e. the top of the "X"). Stephen Ditmore From: Jim Phillips Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:41 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] origami cats Thanks for your comments, Stephen. I wonder if it's possible to have a sleeved, fully-battenned mainsail with large roach...? The battens would tend to rule out the sleeve, one would think. Anyone seen anything like this? Jim. From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:37 pm Subject: Re: metal suppliers Has anyone recently got any pricing done on the materials required. I just ran the material list by one of my steel suppliers, it came out at $7000.00 wheel abraided and primed. Cheers From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:00 am Subject: Re: metal suppliers There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797 Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:10 am Subject: Re: origami cats I met a friend who was sailing one of my 40 footers at Fanning Island . I asked him what he thought of full batten sails and he said " Battens suck , they tend to eat the sail with chafe and break at the least opportune moments ". Another friend there sailing a bristol cannel cutter was trying full length battens for the first time with a sail made in New Zealand from a different sailmaker . I asked him what he thought and he said basically the same thing . The 40 footer went ot New Zealand , then back to BC and the 30 footer went thru the western Pacific, then back to Juan de Fuca. By the time they got back , neither had any use for battens and both said they would never have battens in a mainsail again. I've been told that 80% of sail repairs are around batten pockets. That was pretty well my experience many decades ago when I used to have battens in my mainsail. Brent Swain From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:41 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers Some years ago I bought some steel plate for building outriggers for a truck crane. After a full day of welding I was looking at one of the four beams I had fabricated and thought I saw a tiny crack. I picked up a hammer and tapped the plate fairly hard. A crack ran up nearly the entire 8 foot length, and a piece about 3 inches square fell out! Wouldn't it have been nice to have that holding a load 80 feet in the air! They replaced all the steel, but none of my labor. Gary H. Lucas From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:19 pm Subject: full-batten mainsails With all due respect, I disagree with Brent on this point. I have no doubt that Brent's cruising experience exceeds mine, but there are full batten advocates, such as Steve Dashew, who could match Brent mile for nautical mile. I agree that partial battens stress the sail at the forward ends of the pockets. That's the superiority of full battens, which keep the mainsail from flogging excessively when luffing and thus improve its life span and long-term shape holding. They also help it stack nicely in lazy jacks. Stephen Ditmore From: "jalborey" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:39 pm Subject: Re: metal suppliers More information at the "Faulty Aluminum Plate" thread in the Metal Boats Society forum (http://www.metalboatsociety.com) > There's an interesting article on bad aluminium being sold at > http://www.komotv.com/news/story.asp?id=16797 > Brent Swain From: "Paul Liebenberg" Date: Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:36 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers Where are you, and the name of your supplier? It would be nice to have a database of Steel suppliers, with prices for different geographic areas. Paul L From: "Rick Byzitter" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: metal suppliers I'm in the Vancouver B.C. area, so those were Canadian $s. The supplier was Dominion steel, I buy a lot of "trailer" worth of steel a year so my pricing may be better than "Joe the homeowner's" . From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:20 pm Subject: Re: engines Hello Brent. In regards to your 2AB, what model transmission, ratio and what size propellor are you using ? I would also be interested in knowing what what sort of speed/fuel consumption at a given engine RPM you are seeing. Thank you very much. PS: I think my sister is married to your cousin, Dale Willsie. Cheers. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:38 pm Subject: self steering equipment Would anyone care to venture an opinion concerning self-steering equipment? The search I did yielded some interesting info. http://search.msn.com/results.asp?RS=CHECKED&FORM=MSNH&v=1&q=sail+self+steering Stephen From: "Rick Byzitter" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment This may be of intere. Cheers http://www.capehorn.com From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment The best book I have found on the subject is Self-Steering for Sailboats by Gerard Dijkstra published by Sail Books, Inc. in 1979. A little dated but excellent information about how and why they work. Gary H. Lucas From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; are there self-steering systems which don't? Brent gives instructions in his book on building your own self-steering from stainless rod and other materials, and I've seen his system on several of his designs. His system uses a trim-tab on the rudder, so there is very low stress to the machine itself. I recall him saying that he also hooked up his autohelm 800 to the lever on the trim tab, so that the autopilot has very little work to do, extending the battery life and the working life of the autopilot itself. Seems to make good sense to me, and I like the fact that if you built it yourself, then you can repair it yourself, anywhere, anytime. Alex Christie. From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:52 pm Subject: Re: engines I started out using a 2to1 hurth 100. I fried it this winter when the dipstick worked it's way loose and went through the front main bearing, a common problem with hurth transmissions. I now have a hurth 150- 2 to 1 ratio. I put a piece of stainless rigging wire through the hole in the top and stick the end of it through the vent hole in the dipstick cap to stop it from turning. I'm thinking of making the dipstick out of 5/16th soft copper tubing, so if it gets ate, it will do less dammage.I'd steer clear of anything smaller than a hurth 100. A mechanic told me that if the prop is a bit on the small side or under pitched, a hurth will last forever. If the prop is even a tiny bit oversized or over pitched , the tranny will crap out every time. When a hurth is getting a bit slow to engage, it's time to change the oil in it . They like lots of oil changes . I use a 14 inch prop with a 11 inch pitch as that's the biggest that will fit in my aperture . I could use a 15 inch prop if I had room. I may pitch the prop up a bit this afternoon. Yes Dale Wilsie is my cousin. Brent Swain From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:58 am Subject: Re: metal suppliers Steel suppliers: I have used Dominion Steel and AJ Forsyth in Vancouver BC. Both suppliers use the same service to have plate wheel-abraded and primed with inorganic zinc. You must specify the paint when you order. All the materials for a Swain 36' were available. The 10 ga plate came out of wheel-abrading flat and fair. I am told that this is the best price on steel for 15 years. Used metal is available from Usenco in Surrey BC. rt From: peter thompson Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:07 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment There are some more useful links at: http://www.boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/links/search.cgi?query=self+steering cheers, peter From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Sat Feb 23, 2002 1:22 am Subject: Re: engines Brent, you are one of several people to report a problem with Hurth transmisions. Not to say they are all bad--but a local mechanic had to replace his discs after 1500 hrs. I have an opotunity to pick up a used Borg Warner and rebuild it. I like this idea since it provides a chance to know exactly what is in it and it costs a lot less than a new Hurth or Twin Disc. I then have the option to buy extra parts that appear to wear more for spares. I am going to try out your idea of a tight diesel in a fully vented engine compartment. Still busy scrounging parts and pieces and reworking a stainless prop I picked up at the Boaters Exchange. rt From: Richard Payne Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:17 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] self steering equipment Two excellent wind-vane books: " Wind-Vane Self Steering, theory, principles and practice" by Bill Belcher. Published by CAPTAIN TEACH PRESS, Auckland New Zealand. 1997 . ISBN 1-887197-00-9 and " Self-Steering for Sailing Craft " by John S. Letcher, Jr. Published by INTERNATIONAL MARINE PUBLISHING COMPANY, CAMDEN, MAINE. Both books contain an excellent balance of theory and practical orientation and are all you'll need if you wish to design and construct a rig. I ended up using a paddle on the Sayes Rig principle, coupled to a horizontal axis vane and it has proven robust and accurate. There is nothing more fascinating than sitting aft and watching one of these things work for you - it is almost supernatural! Regards, Richard Payne. From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:19 pm Subject: Re: Swain hull analysis -- how stiff is this hull In vivo test: heavy west coast rains here caused some softening of the ground where I am building a 36' origami hull. We decided it advisable to level the hull thwartships. My son and I were jacking up the hull and adjusting the stbd sheerlegs when he noticed that the hull was supported on only 3 points. I decided to take comparitive measurements at 3 stations. As far as I can tell, the torsional rigidity of the shell without bulkheads or any other framing is not measurable with a tape that goes down to 1/16th". By comparison, when I think about some of the flexing I've seen on some boats at sea and in yards--this builds confidence. rt --- In origamiboats@y..., "Alex & Kim Christie" wrote: Hello All, I think Jeff has brought up some valid points on the issue of heavier displacement vessels versus light displacement. His points are in keeping with a larger ongoing debate in cruising circles everywhere and should provide an excellent touchstone for those who do not find that medium-diplacement Swain hulls fit their ideal. It sounds like Jeff is very happy and confident with his choice of vessel (what is the design name and who is the author of the design, Jeff? I am intrigued), and I am sure it will serve him well. I think it clearly demonstrates that there is lots of room for personal choices to be made in this very subjective arena. Further to this, I do believe there are many light displacement cruisers worth looking at which combine speed, comfort and safety to the best of their ability. This kind of boat is making itself known in the world, but often in forms not available to the man or woman with shallow pockets. Again, Dudley Dix's work might offer something economical to build that really works, I don't completely know. Amor Marine has created a 39' 12,000 lb disp. cruiser that has been designed to have positive bouyancy and a liveable interior in the event of holing, It is reported to be able to attain 13 knots under sail. I have been on the boat myself, and was very impressed with it, enough to be tempted to build one! Is the Swain hull considered to be a medium-displacement hull, or is it a heavy displacement hull? Most would associate heavy displacement with the Steel Roberts Spray hulls, whereas the Swain hull would be considered more of a medium-displacement, don't you think? With its fin keel (or keels in the case of the bilge keeler) and skeg mounted rudder, the hull cannot be put in the same category of a Tahiti Ketch, or a Spray, by any stretch of the imagination. I would say that it is a moderate displament hull. At this point, theoretical analysis of the Swain hull is elusive because the only way to do so is by looking at the digital photos (with their parallax errors) or actually seeing one in person. Ideally one should have a set of lines for the average Swain hull to provide more serious analysis of its potential performance compared to other boats, but these boats are not built to lines per se, only patterns (one of the reasons they are fast to build). Of course, being humans, even if we had a set of lines to look at, we could still disagree on how those lines may translate into reality! The best analysis we have now is through the actual experiences of the people that own them, subjective as that may be. It is good enough for many potential builders of this boat type, and many for many others of other boat types. I think we've established the fact that these hulls are not light displacement by any stretch of the imagination, but neither are they extremely heavy. I do believe that for a steel boat, these boats function very well given some of the constraints imposed by the technique with which they are built. Judging by the numbers built, and their continued popularity on this coast, most owners, in return for the gift of undertaking the blue-water life, have willingly accepted any concessions to speed that the building technique imposes. I have not heard of anyone finding that the hulls rolled excessively. It may be telling that even after long cruises, the owners hang onto their boats for a long time. When a boat gives me grief, or appears to present a liability in terms of my continued existence, I get rid of it! On the issue of heavier plating vs frames: There is no area on the hull of Brent's boats that has large areas of unsupported plate, as there are many closely spaced longitudinal members (fore and aft) made of angle iron spaced about 1 foot (owners please correct me the measurements if need), or so apart. These stringers run the full length of the boat in most cases, though it is said to be unneccessary in the extreme ends of the vessel where the tighter conic shape and stressed-skin provides all the stiffness desired. Many owners run the stringers up there anyway, which is their choice. The hulls are self-fairing as they are built, by the way, and easier than you'd think to achieve symmetry. Brent would know more about explaining this than myself, and I'll leave it to him. Perhaps "frameless" is a misnomer for this type, as it gives a false impression that the plate is bare and unsupported on the inside, which it is not. The evenly spaced stringers plus the slightly thicker skin should fulfill equivalent stiffening that transverse frames would, and would not allow a tear in the hull to "work" beyond itself, and I believe this has been proven by hulls which have seen extreme service. Maybe we should start calling them "longitudinally framed steel boats" to avoid confusion! Cheers, Alex Christie From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Wed Feb 27, 2002 8:47 pm Subject: Bartering I have noticed that we do touch upon such topics as cost. Has anyone thought about or have "we" ever bartered via all the contacts we make through this group? Thoughts come to mind such as, Maybe I can purchase steel at a better rate than......or, I have a bunch of marine diesels lying about. Or I don't want to weld up a hull, but I'd like to barter one for...... Oh well just a thought. Cheers From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 12:55 am Subject: Re: engines The Hurth in itself is a good "intermittant" machanical transmission. The problem in the past has been it being overrated by manufactures. That being useing a 100 where one should use a 150 or a 150 where one should use a 250. Also the use of a oil cooler would aid transmission life. The hurth does not have a forced lube system but there is a bolt on cooler that runs water along the case and cools through heat transfer. The B&W is also a very good hydraulic transmission. Much heavier, much bigger, but very reliable. I have sen hundreds in comercial applications with no problems to speak of. Cheers. From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 1:30 am Subject: Re: engines Thank you, this helps build a broader picture of how to approach auxilliary power in terms of individual components. Are you going to start building in steel? What size, what design? Do you have any materials set aside yet. I would recommend starting with stuff like lead as soon as posible. I am always on the look out for stainless pipe, pipe for sheerlegs, plate for engine beds, stainless plate for mast tabernacle etc. Had i started earlier i would have had the ballast poured and sealed in by now. As it is i am still doing the rounds of the tire shops looking for wheel wheights etc. Anyone have a line on free spent uranium? Dumpsters around metal shops have vast potential for all sorts of useful pieces. Appreciate the transmission tips. rt From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Thu Feb 28, 2002 10:17 pm Subject: Daihatsu CLMD25 Marine Diesel Hi, Does anyone have any information on the Daihatsu CLMD25 1 litre marine diesel. I have bought one that was salvaged from the lifeboat of a wrecked freighter and cannot find anything about the model on the web even though I have emailed the Daihatsu Diesel. I would be especially interested to find out if it is based on the Daihatsu Charade engine. Regards to you all, Ted stone From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 6:21 am Subject: Free Labour Could you do with a little help? My vacation is April 1 to April 14. During this time I would like to help someone who is working on a Brent Swain designed boat. My preference would be to help on: (1) firstly, pulling a hull together or detailing on the hull (2) help with the outside assembly, or the rigging, etc. (3) help with engine installation. The interior woodwork is not on my wish list at this time. Accomodation and food would be taken care of by me. You DO NOT have to pay me, and neither would I pay you! Vancouver Island, lower B.C., or northern Washington state would be acceptable ------- Vancouver Island would be my preference, as it would feel more like a holiday leaving the lower mainland. My first welding course will start after I get back from vacation, so basically I would be the extra hands or your "gopher". I would "go for " this and "go for" that, hold this, or do that. If you might want any help, during that time, please email me: jcholdal@s... Also, I would really enjoy seeing anyone's boat, in whatever stage they have it ---hull to on the water! You would have my full attention, and could brag as much as you wished!! Thanks, John Holdal From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Fri Mar 1, 2002 4:08 pm Subject: Re: Free Labour Had I had my hull on underway, I would of greatly appreciated your offer. And taken you up on it. From: "pvanderwaart" Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 5:52 pm Subject: Re: self steering equipment > The Cape Horn website states that their system works downwind; are there self-steering systems which don't? It's more difficult to get system that self-steers downwind for a couple reasons, but mostly because the apparent wind speed is less which means less power for the system. Boats tend to be less in balance, i.e. have weather helm, and the amount of helm can change quite a lot with changes in the wind. Peter From: johm gorham Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Free Labour cANNOT MAKE IT...lAT LAT121 North 38West From: "sv_simplicity" Date: Sat Mar 2, 2002 8:11 pm Subject: Re: self steering equipment A couple of years ago I was investigating wind vanes. I obtained brochures from every manufacturer that advertised in the sailing mags. Everyone claimed that their product would steer downwind and that all the others could not. Standard marketing practice I guess. I believe sucess depends on your total system installation. The more things you do right, the better the chances it will work. Upwind is easy. Most boats have good inherent stability when sailing close to the wind. Downwind most boats have poor stability. Add the low apparent wind and this is where the problems come in. The biggest performance obstacle is friction in lines and gears. One thing all manufactured have in common is cost. They are all EXPENSIVE. Boats with outboard rudders and trim tabs (Swains come to mind) make it easy and cheaper to build your own. Personally I found the easiest way is sheet-to-tiller systems. Its the cheapest of all and works good. There are disadvantages. If you are using the main or jib and want to change sails or reef, your self- steering must be disconnected. Rigging a small jib on a temporary inner forestay is one way to get around this problem. John Letcher's "Self Steering For Sailing Craft" gives an excellent discussion on how to setup and adjust sheet-to-tiller systems. Al From: "brentswain38" Date: Sun Mar 3, 2002 12:32 am Subject: Re: self steering equipment I used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first boat. The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. Whilre it may be possible to get it to work better on a well balanced boat, every time the wind changes direction or strength you have to re-invent the whole system.With a wind vane. al you do is change the latch a bit. My vertcally axised trimtab system steers wel downwind anytime there's enough wind to move the boat From: "Michael Casling" Date: Mon Mar 4, 2002 3:28 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: self steering equipment Brent wrote: > I used a sheet to tiller system on the run to Frisco in my first boat. The boat was badly balanced ( pipe dream from Skene's elements of yacht design) and the boat broached all over the ocean. I have a copy of that book and find it a good reference guide, but the information he has on rudders is enough to confuse me. They were still promoting the opinion that the rudder should be attached to the back of a fin keel and that a boat can not steer straight unless a skeg is in front of the rudder. I have sailed on boats with fin keels and transom hung rudders, no skeg, that go perfectly straight upwind and down. Michael Casling From: "sv_simplicity" Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:26 pm Subject: Re: self steering equipment Sheet-to-tiller self steering can work over a wide range of wind strengths. The trick is having the correct tension on the elastic (see Letcher's book). I agree that windvanes are easier to adjust for course changes. But if you don't have that you get by with a sheet-to-tiller system. You can even make up a portable kit to take on any boat you sail. If you use the mainsail or small steering jib on an inner forestay and run the sheet along the windward side to the tiller, it will work from close hauled to broad reach with a minimum of re-adjustment after a wind change. The hardest point of sail to setup is dead downwind. Then you have to rig up twin headsails or do what Slocum did on Spray. That is easing the main all the way out and sheeting the jib hard in to the center of the boat. The boat will try to head up away from the main but the jib forces it back. It works better if the jib is on a long bowsprit like Spray had. As a matter of fact, Slocum lengthened Spray's bowsprit during his round the world voyage just for that purpose. I tried this method, without the sprit, on a 22 ft. fractionally rigged day sailer and it still worked. I admit that this was on smooth water in moderate wind but it shows promise (don't forget the vang!). Gaff rigs have larger mainsails that help going downwind; a marconi sloop might be under-powered in lighter winds. Regardless of what you use, I think sheet-to-tiller skills are good to know if you ever find yourself on a shorthanded boat with a broken wind vane. Al. From: "brentswain38" Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:42 pm Subject: Re: self steering equipment The boat was almost impossible to steer by hand downwind in strong winds. When I got to New Zealand , I pulled the rudder off the back of the keel and put a steel rudder on a steel skeg 6 feet behind the original rudder, doubling it's distance from the centre of the keel. The balance upwind was virtually unchanged , but downwind it was an entirely different boat , extremely docile. Because of the seriously assymetrical hull and lean bows-wide stern quarters ,the boat was unbalanced and had no directional stability of it's own. With the rudder at the stern where it belongs,however , I was able to finally get a self steering gear to work and she more or less steered herself for another 3,000 miles around the Western Pacific before breaking loose from a mooring and ending up on a reef in Fiji. The boat broke up ( ferro Cement, but two years later a friend took a picture of the remains of the stern being supported by an undammaged steel skeg.Had the hull been steel she wouldn't have been dammaged at all in the same conditions. I've heard of many similar success stories of people taking off keel mounted rudders and replacing them with skeg mounted rudders further aft.I'd highly recommend it on any boat. Skegs give a rudder far greater strength than any unsupported spade rudder could ever have. Having a skeg in front of a rudder greatly increases the angle it takes to stall it. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Tue Mar 5, 2002 9:58 pm Subject: Re: self steering equipment The self steering in my book and on my plans works extremely well for all my designs . It cost's less than $20 for materials . Some people have tried horizontal axis vanes , theoreitically more powerful, but in practise they all seemed to need a lot more wind to work downwind. None of the new improved models have worked as well as the original, and all have taken a lot more fiddling to use. On a reach in light airs I sometimes found the boat will follow a course very accurately , then suddenly wander off downwind for a while, befor returning to her proper couse. The solution was to ease the main well off, then vang it strongly down to the rail, taking all the twist out of it. After that she'd steer very accurately for days on end. Bearings should be made of plastic with at least 1/16th inch of clearance. Everything should rattle a bit. Otherwise the first bit of salt in the system will kill it's light air performance. Good hull balance in the original design makes all the difference in self steering, regardless of the vane. Brent Swain From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 3:25 am Subject: Construction Hello all. Does anyone know how many Swain type designs are under construction right now? From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 7:49 pm Subject: Re: Construction There are 15 that I can think of off the top of my head . Over 100 have already been built. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Mar 6, 2002 7:51 pm Subject: Re: Construction Canyons Inc of McCall ID sent me a bad cheque . I returned it and haven't heard from them since. Brent Swain From: "david_hilliar" Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:33 am Subject: Re: Construction Brent Are there any boats being built or are presently located in New Zealand that you are aware of. I would be very interested in seeing on or talking to its owner. David From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Mar 7, 2002 7:34 pm Subject: Re: Construction I'm unaware of any being built there at the moment, but several have passed through Whangarei ( Shinola, Mishar,and Opus which is ,I believe, in Musket Cove in Fiji at the moment. One was thoroughly vandalised ,design wise ,by a Kiwi owner who thought he had better ways of doing things and tried to modify the whole boat to death. Brent Swain From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 2:15 am Subject: price of lead Well, I've started scrounging! I don't know alot of what I'm scrounging for or the related costs of materials---yet! My tire dealer tells me that he gets $25(Canadian) for a five gallon pail full of used tire weights, and that he would sell them to me for that price. This is in Vancouver, B.C.. Is it a good price? I can barely lift the pail, so there must be close 100 lbs in it. From: Phillip Allen Date: Fri Mar 8, 2002 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] price of lead I believe I can speak about salvaged lead. I've spent over thirty years casting bullets for myself and can tell you 'cleaning up' five gallons of lead is hot dirt work. I always get those wheel weights for free usually with bucket. The twenty-five dollars is for his trouble in dumping them in the bucket and for your head-of-the-line status. Remember, he has no monitary investment in the 'trash' other that his having to pay attention to it when he sweeps up (that is worth something though), he does not buy them back from his coustomers and he charges the coustomer for the 'new weights' (figured into the price of balancing the tire and wheel). When I start to gather lead for as large a project as you're doing, I'll furnish buckets (with my name and phone number on them) and offer him some incintive to remember me by. I'll try to set up a schedual which allows me to pick up the bucket and replace it with a clean one before it's filled. Learn everyone's name! Learn how to flux the lead (clean it), I use borax for a large job because it's cheap and non flamable. If you have neighbors close, pick a day when the're not home (It tends to smell like a burning out house). Wear long sleaves, glasses, and keep your brain screwed in all the way...it can be dangerous! Plan each pour and remember it's heavy so don't be tempted to overload yourself. good luck!, Phillip (in Arkansas) From: "brentswain38" Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 10:35 pm Subject: Re: price of lead That's an excellent price . Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 10:42 pm Subject: Re: price of lead To avoid breathing fumes it's a good idea to wear a facemask. Some use a surplus gas mask. I've found it much easier to suck air through 25 feet of 1 1/2 inch plastic sump drain hose from the hardware store than a filtre. It's also much more reliable .Put the intake upwind and you'll get no lead or paint fumes whatever .The check valves in the mask will make sure the air goes the right way. The same rig is useful when it becomes time to paint your boat. Brent Swain From: "riptide0037" Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 12:38 am Subject: metal boat festival August 9-11 , Vancouver, Washington . Check out the website : metalboatsociety.com I was there last year for the first time and found some good info and made a few new friends. Would be great if someone knowledgable in origami construction showed up From: "rbyzitter2001" Date: Sat Mar 9, 2002 6:13 pm Subject: Re: engines For what it's worth. Twin Disc has a Hurth "copy" out. The MG340 (Hurth 100) and the MG360 (Hurth 150) When I checked out my pricing on them with the local TW dealer my cost was about 30% better than my cost on Hurth. And if weigh is any indication of durability they are aprox twice the weight, yet they are the same size and have aprox. the same mounting bolt pattern. From: Gord Schnell Date: Sun Mar 10, 2002 6:41 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] price of lead I started collecting from tire shops and soon realized I could buy clean pure lead ingot for under 30 cents a lb. from Pacific Metals in Vancouver. Hell of a lot easier and not much more $$ From: "kayaker_john" Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:19 pm Subject: current price of lead, Vancouver area Upon lbs of material; assuming 10% is steel and dirt, that leaves me 262 lbs phoning Pacific Metals about the cost of lead: 1,000 pounds with each pick up, they would sell at 45 cents a pound. With taxes that would be 51 cents per pound, with me picking it up. My local tire dealer sold me two five gallon (Canadian gallon) pails for $50xx of the used tire weights. After weighing the lot I find that I have 291 of "lead" for my $50xx ---that works out to 19 cents per pound. I checked through for other crap like bolts and nuts, etc. --it was pretty clean. Thanks guys for the help and suggestions. ---Off the topic, but interesting: I've registered for a welding course with the nearby institute of technology, (not MIG) which is what was recommended to me by someone in their welding department. Upon reading Brent's book, I figured that my course was probably the correct choice. To be sure, I stopped by a welding supply store for a "store" opinion and a customer's opinion. MIG was the one!!--no doubts. Then I asked if this MIG cut metal. Reply:"Well no, but for that you take your metal to the local shop to have cut." ---Yup-- that's what I got!!! Upon reading Brent's book I've identified about 50 projects which I could do before I get my hull. That looks like a good hobby for me till that time. ----Thanks again everyone. From: "kayaker_john" Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:51 pm Subject: computer and I -- -- re lead price Sorry! This computer does not like me!! No time to retry! Summary: tire dealer sold me 291 lbs for $50xx. Assuming 10% is steel and dirt, gives me 262 lbs ------of "lead" at 19 cents per pound metal company price: 45 cents per pound, taxes 6 cents per pound, gives per pound cost of 51 cents ----Thanks again for all suggestion. From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:01 pm Subject: lead price re: price of lead - hit up local tire stores for surplus balance weights early and often! (see below) Stephen From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:24 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] lead price Oops, that was supposed to be a forward, not a reply. Sorry. From: Gord Schnell Date: Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] computer and I -- -- re lead price That's a good price. I haven't looked up my receipt, but I believe Pacific Metals wanted 28 cents for cable scrap lead and 30 cents for ingot. Gord From: "Scott Yanke" Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 5:14 am Subject: Lead I might be able to get clean ingots for even less that $0.30 a pound. How much lead does the average hull take? and I will look in to it further. Scott Yanke "On the 10 year plan" From: "John P Barker" Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 7:52 pm Subject: Brent's book Ok Brent, I keep hearing about the wonderful things in your book. So, I want one. How much is it and how do I get it in the U.S.A. You mentioned a book telling of Dove's doing the North West Passage. That voyage really intrigues me and I would love to have that book in my library. Any information on that book would be appreciated. Thanks John P. Barker From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:03 pm Subject: Dove III book John, I've just dug up this so far regarding the Dove arctc passage book. Will get more details about source for buying it if I can. http://www.heritagehouse.ca/fineedge/arcticodyssey.html Arctic Odyssey Len Sherman $19.95 ISBN 0-938665-63-4 -Alex Christie From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:33 pm Subject: Dove III book at Amazon John, The book, Arctic Odyssey : Dove III Masters the Northwest Passage by Len Sherman, is available through Amazon in the US for a list price of $24.95 USD plus shipping. Here is the URL for where I found it on Amazon, but it is cheaper, even including shipping, to buy from the Canadian booksellers listed below the Amazon URL: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0938665634/qid%3D1015970222/ref%3Dsr% 5F11%5F0%5F1/104-8423249-3359933 Canadians: The book is published by Heritage House (www.heritagehouse.ca), and according to them costs $19.95 (CDN) and available at www.bcbooks.com and www.chapters.indigo.ca BC Books lists it at $19.95 Cdn, and ships to US for $9Cdn, so total cost is Can$29.10, which is only $18.34USD, shipping included! So buy Canadian, Eh? Alex From: "jalborey" Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 10:26 pm Subject: Dove III Book Alex, They have it at Amazon.com From: "John P Barker" Date: Tue Mar 12, 2002 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Dove III book at Amazon Alex, Thanks for the quick reply. I did order it from BC Books. It is incredible that it is as easy to do now. My experience at trying to get Farley Mowat's books out of Canada in the 60s was not so pleasant. John From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Thu Mar 14, 2002 3:02 pm Subject: Lead I am builing a 36' bilge keeler just outside of Nanaimo and would like to hear from anyone regarding buying lead or anything else that might save us a few bucks acting together. Thanks From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:12 am Subject: Re: Lead I am building a 36' fin-keel on the Sunshine Coast. So far i have collected about 700lbs from tire shops here. I wheel the stuff back to my boat building shack balanced 2 buckets at a time, hanging on the handle bars of my bicycle without too much trouble. Price ranges from free, $10, $15 and up to $25 per per plastic pail: replacing the pails seems to help in some cases. I have scrounged up another 1500lbs or so from scrap. There are scrap metal dealers in Vancouver who will sell you clean lead for 33cents lbs and sometimes less. It is worth shopping around. If it helps, it seems possible to obtain lead that has been used on roofs and has tar on it for less. I will try to get a precise price if the quantity makes it worthwhile. I figure the tar will burn off during melting or the small amount that survives the pour won't harm anything once it is welded in tight. All this said, I am guessing you would prefer to shop on the Island to save on ferry costs. How much lead do you need at the moment? rt From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:16 am Subject: Re: engines and transmissions Thanks for the tip. I just found a Borg Warner AS2-71C. It came with 2 coolers (1 spare) a drive plate and a shop manual. Seems to work really well and the price was right. Apperently it could be a bit of overkill but local fishermen tell me that the thing is virtually foolproof providing it is protected from salt water. Originally I discounted the idea of a motor having sailed contentedly without one. Then on the urging of friends who like to be home on time, we compromised with the thought of an outboard, adjusted that plan with the notion of a cheap gas engine; later Brent wisely advised on waiting for a diesel with forced air ducted through the engine compartment. After lusting for a new 3 cyl Isuzu at the baot show (which would have been ideal), I found a rebuilt VW Rabbit diesel engine from a wreck that I could actually pay for and own. It is the 1600cc version that enjoyed a long production run and according to the books produces 38hp at 3000 rpm. Used parts are abundant and spares relatively easy to come by. rt From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 9:52 pm Subject: Re: Brent's book For a copy of my book , please send US $20 plus US$3 for postage to Suite#427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9 Thanks Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Mar 15, 2002 10:17 pm Subject: Grinding Discs Most Makita angle grinders have a rather large metal backup plate for use with rigid discs. This limits the amount of use you can get out of each disc. You have to take them off when there is still a lot of disc left. When I suggested to Ken Splett that this seemed a rather foolish thing for Makita to do he said " No ,Makita sells discs ". I found it easy to cut the flange off with a cutting torch , leaving a backup plate about 1 1/2 inch in diameter, put it back on the grinder , and using another grinder with both runnibg simultaneously, machine the burned backup plate back to round.This lets you use the discs until they are totally used up and also to use smaller discs to grind the inside of holes like scuppers, etc.Being flat, it also lets you use flat discs without pulling the centre out of them. The centreing flange on the standard arrangement is a bit too deep to enable you to use the thin walter Zipcut cutting discs which are so handy and cut so fast. Of course Makita will sell you a whole other setup with a deeper groove which will handle zipcuts, for an additional fee of course. It's easy to grind the centreing flange down enough to use zipcuts, and still have enough to safely centre discs. This eliminates the need to be constantly hunting for the part you need in a pile of scrap ,and constantly having to change the backup plates as you switch from cutting to grinding discs, and thus greatly speeds up detail work. If you tighten the discs on by hand, you can usually get them off by hand, without having to hunt for the wrench. If it needs to be tighter, it will tighten itself, as the thread turns in the same direction as the grinder. Keyless pulleys on alternators work the same way. My older makita 4 inch grinder has a 10 mmx1.25 thread . This is extremely close to a 3/8th inch fine thread , which is the thread on a drill chuck. I ran a metric tap through a drill chuck and am now able to thread it on my mini grinder and use all those cheap mini grindstones on my angle grinder for touchup in hard to reach spots, all at 10,000 RPM.They are too small a diameter to have enough centrifugal force to be a serious safety hazzard. A friend who built a round bilge Brewer design , with lots of seams to grind , tried aluminium rigid discs on steel . He said that altho they dissapeared much faster than steel dics, they cut the metal down a lot faster, and he figured it was worth the extra expense on hard to reach , overhead grinding to use aluminium discs .He said the time saved more than paid for the extra cost of the discs. From: Richard Payne Date: Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:10 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Grinding Discs I solved the disk problem by using up the disks as much as possible on a 9 inch grinder and then swapping them over to a 4 inch grinder with the same spindle diameter to use them right up. For ease of construction you really need a large and a small grinder anyway. I would be cautious about minimizing flange diameter. Regards, Richard. From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Grinding Discs We have deliberately destruction tested half used cut off discs using nothing but a pair of flat washers and a nut. They work well provided that the clamping surfaces are flat. The danger lies in placing the disc on a depressed cup and tightening on it unevenly. This will lead to disc fracture and they may disintegrate. By comparison, check out how small the backing plate is on a cut off saw with a 14" blade--turns out to be smaller than the one on your angle grinder most of the time. rt From: "ravensoars2001" Date: Tue Mar 19, 2002 9:37 pm Subject: Mare Island Epoxy Mare Island Epoxy was used to paint US Navy Vessels. I am led to believe it has been replaced by Devoe Barust 235. I would appreciate learning anything about the performance of the Mare Island product. It was manufactured by NCP Coatings MI. How well would it perform on a small steel boat? Thank you, rt From: "jalborey" Date: Wed Mar 20, 2002 6:11 pm Subject: Hull repair in origami boats I find the origami boatbuilding concept most interesting. But I have a doubt regarding the following: how can you repair a origami hull in the event it receives more or less extensive damage in places where the hull is self supported by what, as I understand it, is a "stressed skin hull"? How can you replace, in case you need to, a extended section of the hull plating where it is subjected to the forces which give form to the hull? Thanks, Jesús From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Mar 21, 2002 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Hull repair in origami boats Despite surviving everything from pounding accross 200 yards of fijian coral reef to a collision with a freighter,steel barge, logboom, etc., to pounding in 8ft surf for several weeks , etc, etc , over the past 22 years , no one has ever had to repair one. As the ends of a boat would just bounce , the only place where you are even remotely likely to dent an origami boat is midships along the chine. When replacing plate here you would have to tack several fairly wide pieces of plate on edge accross the seam to keep them in line while you are doing any welding, the break these pieces off to weld the spots where they were , and grind the outside . This is the same technique you would use to keep the bottom plates fair accross any seams there . On a single keel boat , the chine doubler plates on the inside of the hull can be made of as heavy a plate as you feel is needed ,as any weight there is amidships and low down. This greatly reduces the likelyhood of any dammage there. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Tue Mar 26, 2002 11:51 pm Subject: Re: "NUTHIN WONG " Jack Carson has a similar design to "Nuthin Wong"in the works . Construction on it should be beginning soon in Royston BC. You can reach him at jackaranda@h... Brent Swain From: "C. K. Sollitt" Date: Tue Apr 2, 2002 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: yahoo derived spam Brent, I bought the Kobella last fall and am ready to purchase sails. The boat came with a 13.5 ft wood (go figure) boom. Your sail design for this boat calls for a 15.5 ft foot on the main and I have found two other 36' BS pilot house boats with 16 to 17 ft long booms. My mast is 46 ft high above the deck. Should I look for another boom? Do you recommend any specific dimensions and/or rigging for the boom? Chuck Sollitt From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 1:56 am Subject: Whazzzat..? Heard there are 40,000 containers lost from container vessels floating about at any given time...10,000 lost per year. I am assuming outside of a tearomg corner hit, the origami steel boat is best constructed to survive. Suppose a corner hit.. how bad would be the damage @ say 5 knots...and what then? Thanks all.. Gary From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:02 am Subject: Re: yahoo derived spam 13ft5 is mighty short for a boom. While it's nice to get it out of the cockpit, you should look for something a bit longer, as you'd be giving up a lot of sail area with such a short boom. A 5 inch diameter aluminium tube with 1/8th inch wall is adequate .Check the availability of used sails , going a bit shorter on the foot is OK but if you go too short , you'll end up with a lee helm in light winds. The rig is designed for a roachless, battenless mainsail. A combination of high roach and long boom will give you a bit of weather helm as well as the constant headachs and repairs battens inevitably cause. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:07 am Subject: Re: Whazzzat..? A friend hit a sunken barge on a sharp point while he was doing seven knots . The 3/16th inch 36 foot steel hull was only dented .A floating container would be highly unlikely to punch a hole or do any serious damage to a 36 or 40 footer built of 3/16th inch plate . Comming home from Hawaii I once hit something, while doing hull speed in the middle of the night, which was definitly metal. It bounced me right out of my bunk. The only dammage was a small dent which I only discovered years later. Brent Swain From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 3:24 am Subject: Re: Whazzzat..? Thanks Brent... On my first attempt at building (wrong economic assumptions..my part entirely).. your 36 ft'r..it was near Cumberland on some acreage where the owner had cattle.. He roped off the area around the boat..not to protect the structure but to protect his herd from bruising the fillet... Gary From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Thu Apr 4, 2002 10:09 pm Subject: Gas Cutting Guide Hi folks, Do you have any good ideas or information on using a flexible batten as a guide for the gas torch when cutting out steel plate or sheet? Ted Stone From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Apr 5, 2002 12:03 am Subject: Re: Gas Cutting Guide A flexible batten made of deck beam flatbar tacked to the plate works well with a plasma cutter. With a cutting torch, as soon as the heat from the torch hits the batten, it expands and takes on all kinds of funny shapes . It would take something much stiffer, such as angle iron, to hold it's shape , and that would limit it's ability to go around curves . I've found that a heavy piece of plate , used as a guide and moved every couple of feet works OK. Perhaps flatbar which is not tacked to the plate , but is supported between small pieces of scrap which are tacked to the plate , may leave the flatbar free to expand longitudinally and thus avoid the heat expansion problem. I've never tried this, but it may work. Brent Swain From: "robert44654" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 3:16 pm Subject: new ideas I am back again! I have been making models of origami boats, the idea is revelalutionary! Genius! I have toyed with the idea of narrower hull models. MacGregor built a narrow hull 65 foot sailboat about 10 years ago with a width of 12 feet. The boat is very fast. When you get that narrow its seems to hide some of the distortion that occurs in the underwater profile of the origami boat. What I did was take 2 sheets of cardboard that are approximately 15 inches by 3 inches rectangular, cut a short narrow vertical slit mid way from the ends in the bottom side of the sheets maybe 1 inch in length or less, cut the bow out of each sheet in the form of a quarter circle, and cut a small amount out of the bottom of each sheet in a straight line with the most cut out of the ends and none at the middle. (maybe 1/4 inch at the ends). then tape them together similair to the method of brent swain's model. For the transom cut a semicirlcle approximately 2 1/2 inches in diameter, (experiment slightly larger or smaller) and tape it to the back. The boat seems to have better shape if the transom is angled some, either forward or backward. this seems to give the stern of the boat a flatter bottom, which is good. The shape of a cross section of the stern of the boat seems to have a ellipse, with its long axis going from side to side of the boat. Application of a narrow hull: Larger sail boats, probablely at least greater than 40 feet. 2)canoes - (the shape maybe improved by having the stern of the boat not pointed) 3) multihulls OK. Construction of larger boats. Dow makes blue board in 4 by 8 foot sheets. The material is very resistant to absorbing water. Perhaps this could be laid flat on the ground maybe 6 sheets end to end two rows wide, and fiberglass applied to one side (probablely the outside) the lines of each half hull lofted onto the fiberglass and these large half hulls joined simialir to the construction methods of Brent with steel. Blue board can be melted/dissolved in epoxy so you need to experiment a bit before you go hog wild on this. However, certain types of epoxy will work! Probalbely not the ployester type.( I think this is what the blue board is made of). Apparently, the epoxy epoxy is thined, and the thinner is what dissloves the blue board. Another word of warning! The bond of fiberglass to the blue board is weak. Solution: There may have to bebreaks in the blue board at regular intervals so the inside and the outside fiberglass bond to each other. Probablely they could be joined after the first layer of fiberglass is applied by either making circle holes through the hull or parallel horizontal cuts in the hull with a circular saw and pulling fiberglass cloth that is wetted through the cuts. From: "robert44654" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 6:12 pm Subject: fiberglass female mold Another idea: Build half boats with brents disign,( may want to design to slightly ligther displacement) and use the inside of the half hulls as forms for fiberglass boat. The inside of the forms can easily be faired by taking a large radius forming paddle in the shape of a semi circle and filling in (with a fairing compound) the "dimple" that is created below the waterline that is created by the chine. The form can be made out of thin plywood at litttle cost. Make sure to apply some sort of releasing compound to the form before the gelcoat and fiberglass is applied. From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 9:55 pm Subject: Welds Just wondering about the permeability of welds. I realize that after epoxy & paint there is not much chance of leaks, but can welds actually leak? Gary From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Sun Apr 7, 2002 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Welds In theory a weld can be as impermeable as the base metal. I watched the construction of a large stainless tank for the testing of spacecraft at deep space vacuum levels. The tank was stick welded from 2" thick stainless, then all the welds were 'washed' with a tig torch to seal any possible voids in the surface. I used to do work for a chemical plant where we welded mild steel hot oil lines. They had to carry oil heated to a temperature of 550 degrees Fahrenheit. A pinhole leak was dangerous because it would spray atomized oil into the air and it would immediately catch fire. We pressure tested everything with air at about 100 psi and used soap bubbles to test for leaks. No problem getting bubble tight welds, if you were careful. Gary H. Lucas From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 12:24 am Subject: Want to buy boat plans Brent, I want to order plans for your 31' boat. Is the price still $300? Where do I send the money? Gary H. Lucas From: "claudepoitras" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 3:56 am Subject: Boat Insurance I have Brent's book and like the consept very much. If one build his owne Origami steel boat, will it be hard to get proper insurance? Are insurance company not leary of back-yard builders? From: "quatsein" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 4:26 am Subject: Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area John, Most first time welders are really impressed with how easy it is to lay down a nice weld wih MIG. The truth is the welds they make are more often then not poor welds (lack of fusion). It's far more easy for a novice welder to make a better quality weld with stick than mig. Just ask a certified welder. Oh, and it's best not to pay too much attention to salesmen and store goer's, unless they can prove thier experience to you. Ask the guys that are actually building metal boats. Steve Carlisle From: "alex_christie" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:49 am Subject: Re: Boat Insurance To get insurance for your boat, most companies require you to have it surveyed, even if it is built of fibreglass, wood, metal, concrete, or whatever. This way, both you and the company know and agree what kind of condition the hull is in, the state of its safety equipment, and most importantly, how much money it is worth should it need to be replaced. It should not be a problem insuring a steel boat, even if it is home-built. The other kind of insurance, called "liability" is what you get to insure yourself in case you damage someone else's property or person with your vessel. The hull material in this case doesn't make much difference, unless your hull is made of something explosive! Is your insurance broker leery about insuring a metal boat? There are thousands of insurance brokers out there who would be very happy to have your business, so if at first try you find your request for insurance turned down, simply "go across the street" to the next company, and you will likely have better luck. Steel is not an uncommon material in the marine industry, of course--- look at all the steel ships out there! Alex From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area I have a lot of experience with bad MIG welds. I owned a company that made parts which were hot dip galvanized after welding. A beautiful looking weld would literally almost fall apart after galvanizing. It was very scary since these parts were intended to hang machinery from overhead! We determined that the problem was due to welding at too low of a current, causing poor penetration. In particular the popularity of 0.035" welding wire is THE major problem. It can't carry enough current to ensure good fusion, even though the welds look great. We specify 0.045" welding wire for ALL welds in materials from 1/8" to 1/4" thick, and for 1/8" or 1/4" parts welded to 16 ga. tubing. We refuse to accept any parts welded with 0.035" weld wire, and you can tell the difference by eye. The welding companies always argue with this because it is sometimes much more difficult to weld out of position. Once the welders get experienced though your welding costs go down because the welding process is much quicker at the higher current levels. A second problem is the inexpensive MIG welding machines. When a weld is started using a MIG gun the current initially shoots way up, to possibly 1000 amps or more before the cold wire burns off and initiates the arc. If the transformer in the welding machine is too small the voltage droops off badly and insufficient current causes a cold start, and a bad weld. Worse yet, many of the small MIG welders use 0.025" welding wire, which makes for even worse weld penetration than 0.035" I would weld a steel hull with MIG without hesitation. Using the right machine and the right techniques you will get less heat distortion and a great reduction in man hours by eliminating extensive grinding and chipping, changing rods etc. You also can weld out of position much easier than with stick. Gary H. Lucas From: "burr.halpern@a..." Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] new ideas The idea of a ling narrow cruiser makes a lot of sense for a hardchine boat. While not exactly an Origamiboat, in that it has internal athrwarship framing, SteelStar by Yves Tanton http://www.tantonyachts.com/ is a really great example of this type. Jeff From: "kayaker_john" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 6:14 pm Subject: questions re stainless steel We just bought six stainless steel piecees for stanchions, but they were very dull, almost a grey color. The metal dealer (scrap yard) told us it was the "mill finish". He said that we could polish them up. Is this true? If true, how do you get the shine in them. (By "shine", I mean that stainless steel "look".) Oh yes, they were non-magnetic. -------John Holdal, Mission, B.C. From: francois letourneau Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] questions re stainless steel Hi kayaker John. I am new to the board, Are you thinking about making a metal see kayak using the origami method??? Regards Francois Designer, Inno3D, Quebec From: "kayaker_john" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 7:01 pm Subject: Pacific Metals' price of lead, Vancouver Pacific Metals gave me the following prices today: (1)scrap lead at 45 cents per pound----containing high 90%s amount of lead (2) ingots of pure lead at 55 cents per pound -----containing over 99% lead. ----Good Luck, John Holdal From: "Leif Thomsen" Date: Mon Apr 8, 2002 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area I fully agree! After several yachts, the last one was a 40 feet steel junkrigged scooner I am convinced that MIGwelding, using the right teqnique and equipment produces strong and watertight welds, and saving a lot of time. Leif Thomsen Sweden From: "quatsein" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 5:19 am Subject: Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Well Gary, I have to disagree with most of all your comments in regards to MIG welding, except maybe the part about the welding machine quality, however I think it's more about people buying too small a machine for the job. I can say this because I am certified, and have tested in all processes and positions. The problems that you speak of are not process related but technique related. Steve From: "kayaker_john" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 6:53 am Subject: Re: questions re stainless steel No, I'm not even remotely thinking of a metal kayak; however, I am thinking about a "metal mothership" about 36 feet in length from which I can launch a small kayak to go "gunk holing". My identifier name, "kayaker_john" was my attempt at not being able to be easly indentified as I was very uneasy about joining an internet group. Since then I have been so pleased with this group that I've tried to change my member name to just "John Holdal" ---but have been unable to do so. Welcome to the group. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do. There are alot of very expereinced people here who give excellent advice. From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area Steve, I agree that someone who is an expert in the process AND has the metal properly prepared CAN make excellent quality welds using the smaller wire sizes. My experience is that the welder in not always the most qualified, and the metal is not always in ideal conditions. I was making hangers to hang machinery overhead. We were making thousands of parts, and even a defect rate of 1 per thousand would not be acceptable. I have had numerous welders make the same statement you are, and swear they have never experienced the failures I am worried about, then deliver welds that failed after hot dip galvanizing! In every case simply forcing them to use the larger wire, with more current, welding faster, and yes not producing quite as nice looking weld solved the problem. We are talking amateur boat builders here. My advice WILL improve the chances of them building a boat successfully. Gary H. Lucas From: Phillip Allen Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area I think it would be good to remember to whom Gary is speaking. As I see it, Mr. Lucas is speaking to those of us who are NOT profesional welders. I myself, will certinly need to learn as much as I can. Please carry on Gary, my brain isn't full yet. Phillip Allen From: "quatsein" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 4:14 pm Subject: Re: current price of lead, Vancouver area The purpuse of my post was to make aware to the amatuer boatbuilder that the mig welding process can easily produce unnaceptable welds in the hands of an amatuer, and as Gary states, also in the hands of experienced welders. The stick welding process does not produce anywhere near the amount of poor welds, even in the hands of the less experienced. It however produces welds not nearly as nice in appearance as MIG. Welding is a hands on experience, and you get better by doing, not by reading. The scary part is that a persons homebuilt boat project, at the start, is likely to have many inferior welds that could fail in a heavy sea. food for thought. Steve From: "carlmbentley" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 8:26 pm Subject: keel bulbs all the talk of welding and lead prices just reminded me of an idea i had a while back but never got around to posting. when i first joined this group i read all the back posts, there was a brief discussion on bulbs at the bottems of twin keels. i recall brent asking if anyone knew where to get cheap used oxygen bottles. couldn't the same goal be reached just by welding 2 pieces of 8 inch X "length of the keel" steel into an "L" onto the inside and outside of the keels, leaving the original bottem intact so as not to add draft. and then just filling them with lead and capping both ends ? front view // keel ---> / _/ |/_| side view \ / \ / \ ___________/ \ |||||||||/ <--- added weight or something to that effect (hey it's hard to draw with keyboard characters) also you would have to be careful of protruding out from the front of the keel, my father had welded stainless "skis" unto his bilge keels to save the paint on the bottems, or more likely to save having to paint them in the first place. but he left a little lip on both sides just like a ski, for towing on or off beaches i guess ? He was always snagging trash on them though, course he never complained about having to pull a lobster trap off. anyway just an idea from a novice, so feel free to point out the glaring hole in my logic. From: "carlmbentley" Date: Tue Apr 9, 2002 8:43 pm Subject: huh so much for my little drawing, the post got butchered. oh well, hopefully ya'll get the idea. From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:10 pm Subject: Re: keel bulbs It's capping the ends in a manner which gives a hydrodynamic , streamlined result which is the problem with pipe.. The rounded ends of an oxygen bottle give a great front end. Tapering the trailing ends to a point would take a bit of experimenting ( Maybe with spent CO2 cartridges which are the same shape as oxygen bottles.) Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Want to buy boat plans Plans for the 31 footer are still $300 . Please send a postal money order to Brent Swain Suite #427, 1434 Island Highway Campbell River BC Canada V9W8C9 Brent Swain From: "kahugaha" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 8:30 pm Subject: catalog for Swain's designs? Is there such a thing? You know, little line drawings of plan and profile and accomodations, perhaps with a little descriptive text saying what the design goals were. For example, Bolger has "Different Boats" and Colvin has "Cruising Designs" and LF Herreshoff has "The Compleat Cruiser". Or maybe a web site like MacNaughton's http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/ ? Thanks! From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:23 pm Subject: Re: new ideas Fibreglass sheet is available in rolls. You could sand it and leave it in . It can also be great for making models. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Apr 10, 2002 10:16 pm Subject: Re: Boat Insurance None of my boats have had any problem passing survey or getting insurance as far as I'm aware.Even the worst built steel boats are lightyears stronger and less risk for an insurance company than a stock fibreglass boat, something most insurance companies are aware of.Several origami aluminium boats were recently built in Port Hardy to Canada Shipping Act standards for passenger vessels. When the owners said they were using my methods , the surveyors said " We are aware of the proccess, no problem." Brent Swain From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 3:59 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] catalog for Swain's designs? Brent's book may answer some of the questions you have. His philosophy about boatbuilding is very clear throughout the text. His book is available directly from him, at the address in the last posting (address is also located in the files section under "contact information", or write Brent directly via email at brentswain38@h... . Alex From: "winslow59" Date: Thu Apr 11, 2002 4:59 pm Subject: Visiting Vancouver Island I will be on Vancouver Island with some free time, and a car, Friday, 25 April. I hope to have an opportunity to see some examples of Swain design sailboats (complete or under construction). Are there any group members available to show their boats and answer questions from someone hoping to get started within the next 12 months? -Markus winslow59@y... From: Stephen Wandling Date: Sat Apr 13, 2002 4:22 pm Subject: Welder needed in Vancouver BC I need a welder to assist me in completing a 34' steel sailboat hull which is now in Richmond, BC. There are numerous things to be done, but a significant item is grinding and rewelding the underwater seams, which may be about a weeks work. I supply the welder and consumables, as well as the grinder and disks. Work to start immediately. Respond directly to me at stephenw@t... or call (604) 649-1418. References will be required. Stephen Wandling From: "claudepoitras" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 4:42 am Subject: Origami 36 design I plan on building a 36 foot Origami boat in the next few year. I like the curved deck shape of the (sharler junk) boat in photo. I wonder how he managed that. Would the boat be more sea worthy? I would like my boat built like that with a maine and mizen. This should make sail handling easer because the sail are smaller. I also would like to have an aft cabin. Is this unrealistic on a 36 foot boat? Can it be built from the basic plans? From: "buckrogers1234" Date: Mon Apr 15, 2002 5:57 am Subject: sail area Would anyone know the total sail area of the Swain 36, so the sail area displacement ratio can be calculated. Thanks Brian From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 1:20 am Subject: Ownership Some of us are building boats on other people's property. Just wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back and how would you prove it was yours? This brings me to the question of at what time, during the building process do you register the boat so you do in fact establish ownership. Thanks Gary From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 10:27 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership Gary writes: > wondering if the owner of the property got into a bind and someone > seized his property would you have a problem getting your boat back That is a very interesting question, one I've often pondered myself. Anyone who has ever rented space, be it an apartment or merely an empty lot, knows how undesired "surprises" can creep up and nab the unsuspecting, often leaving the renter in the poorest position, since a landlord may be unlikely to tip his renter that trouble is in the wind. The fact is that people's lives change more quickly than one expects, and the renter of space must protect him or herself from problems brought about by change in someone else's life. It would be helpful to hear from a marine lawyer about the issue, but some of the preventative measures are fairly logical and straightforward. My first instinct when looking for a spot is to find one where someone else has already built a steel boat. That way, you have some background on previous experiences, and the owner of the land himself knows what to expect, since he has already rented it out before. In other words, follow in the safe footsteps of the trail-blazers! If that is not possible, then I would be very careful about choosing my building site; what are your instincts about the owner of the land? Does he seem "stable", looking like he is well entrenched on his land? Be clear about what you will be doing to build your boat (some owners don't take into account factors such as welding flash and grinder noise when saying yes to a steel boatbuilder). Take your time looking and don't feel pressured to jump at the first opportunity. It isn't like everyone is vying for boatbuilding space on land all at once, so be choosy, even going back several times to see the place. Collect several possibilities and compare and contrast their attributes. It may simply come down to "gut instinct", though one should also endeavour to check around for information about the place . Locals Know Everything in rural areas, so ask around, without being too intrusive or nosey-seeming. News of bad seed travels like wild-fire, at least in these parts. What can you do to prove ownership? Even tacked together, your boat is simply a pile of steel, a sculpture if you will, and without registry there is no proof of ownership, like a pile of lumber sitting in a yard. A creditor who seizes a piece of property is going to consider everything of value on that property under seizure, unless the alleged owners that hunk of steel can prove otherwise. The word of the land owner is worth nothing in this case, since the bank might think he is trying to farm out his chattel to others in order to protect it... Once your boat is in some semblance of a boat, and you find yourself concerned about its security, document it with photographs, and obtain a licence for it if you can in your region. Some provinces have a means of registering personal property. In BC a marine "K" number (eg, 14K 3779) can be obtained by filling out the appropriate forms with the hull's measurements, and this would help regarding establishing your ownership. I don't believe the hull has to be finished in order to get the K number, and I've never been asked for proof of a hull's actual existence whenever I've taken out a licence. This may or may not be true for the USA. The ultimate protection is that afforded by the fact that the typical origami boat goes together very quickly, and if all is planned well, she can be launched very early and taken to a better spot if need be. Getting a bare hull together in a matter of weeks also gives one the option of moving it to another spot for detailing, as opposed to a traditional steel hull which can take many months or sometimes years to put together. Many origami boats have been put together right beside an urban house without much complaint from neighbours. This is may be because the construction of the origami boat doesn't look very "industrial" compared to framed boats, or it goes together so fast they "don't know what hit'em"! Brent has a great story about this regarding his own experiences with an unanticipated early launch, made possible by the handy pre-primed (zinc rich primer) steel we can get here in Canada. I'll leave it to him to tell if he likes. It has been my wish for some time to set up an "Origami Boatbuilding Centre" on an acreage close to the sea on Vancouver Island, where people can come build boats in secure and pleasant surroundings without the problems and concerns listed above. A well equipped machine/welding shop, handy piles of scrap stainless pipe and rod, and a mess of scrounged goodies for fitting out would round it out nicely. It could be a kind of boatbuilding school, in a way, after the fashion of my own experience at the Silva Bay Shipyard School (www.boatschool.com), but in steel instead of wood. The owners would benefit by having a lot of materials sourced before they arrive, all at the best prices, and would end up with a boat "built to spec" with advice and guidance on hand as needed. A person could arrive by air and leave by sea in their own boat if they got it done on site. What do you think? Would the idea "float", so to speak? Alex From: "Joe Casey" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership Hi Alex, Your concept of a Origami Boatbuilding Center is a very good one. You mentioned that Pre Primed steel is available in Canada. Is it not also available in the US? Regards, Joe From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] pre-primed steel Yes, some members had mentioned once having trouble sourcing wheel-abraded, shot-blasted, pre-primed steel in the US, but this may not be the case in every state. Also, there may be some pre-primed steels that are not so extensively treated, I don't know. I would not recommend it if if were only lightly primed. The advantage of the kind we can get here is that it avoids the need for sandblasting the hull-- a messy and expen$ive job which is often a barrier/stumbling block for many home-built boats (especially if you are in a residential neighborhood). The zinc-rich primer available here is tough as nails and makes a fine base for subsequent layers of epoxy. Only the welding seams need to be ground and primed by hand, but thankfully there aren't that many on origami style hulls. Alex From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 7:17 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership I'll admit to being freaked out about this, as well. The idea of getting halfway done, then having your landlord give you the boot, well, it sure isn't pleasant. This (and transportation) was probably one of the main reasons that I scrapped the idea of building an origami trawler. To pull it off, I'd have to in sight of water. Waterfront space in So. Cal. is extremely dear, so that would put an end to any kind of relaxed building plans. Also, you can't work on your boat in the water in most marinas, and there's really nowhere to just anchor out. Luckily, I have a side driveway that would make an acceptable site for one of Brent's plans. I'll probably have to take the boat to completion there, rather than launching earlier and getting some enjoyment out of it. It's great that the origami hulls go together so fast, but I don't think that every builder needs to be hell-bent-for-leather about getting over the horizon. Enjoying the building process, and being thoughtful about the systems will probably get you much farther ahead. I have to always remind myself: less haste, more speed. Having just finished a hull-up re-design of a 20' go-fast I/O, I can look back on numerous pleasant sessions of "driveway cruising", sitting in the cockpit, with a shot and a beer at sunset, scheming out the next moves with my wife. Back to the thread: Personally, I'd suggest a written agreement between you and the landlord. If it says that the purpose is for boatbuilding, that says something about finding a boat on the property. Then, as soon as the hull is tacked together, go ahead and register it. Here in California, you basically go down to the DMV and fill out paperwork. There are also services that will help you to get a Certificate of Documentation, that supercedes state registration: http://www.captaingreg.net/indexds.html Besides, unless your boat is painted, most folks would probably want it hauled away, rather than try to acquire it! db From: "Joe Casey" Date: Thu Apr 18, 2002 7:45 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] pre-primed steel Thanks for that information Alex. I am in southern Louisiana and my local port, the Port of New Orleans, is one of the largest destinations of foreign steel in the US, at least it was before our return to protectionism. If there is interest I will let the list know the results of my search for this specialty steel and it would help if you could tell me where the steel you have access to is made and a more specific brand name or content specification of the coating. I wonder why sandblasting is expensive. Is it because of the air volumes necessitating a huge compressor or is it because there is a reason the hull can't be divided up into smaller sections and sandblasted and painted in manageable pieces or is an expensive medium, other than sand necessary? I can visualize the mess with no assistance. Best, Joe From: Claude Poitras Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 12:45 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership I would love that idea, very much. Being in Alberta, I am far from the sea. Claude Poitras From: Jim Phillips Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 1:25 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership About ownership of an unfinished boat on a piece of land that is in the midst of some form of legal turmoil: I keep all my receipts during boat construction and maintenance. The pieces of steel (not yet a boat) are legally mine due to these documents that register a sale between a steel seller and a steel buyer. It has nothing to with any government boat registration bureau, as it's not yet a boat. "It's just a chunk of steel and here are my receipts to prove ownership." On another topic: Anyone heard of a cat being constructed out of aluminium with the origami method? I am in the design stage (ie. thinking) and would like to make 2 long, thin, origami hulls. Fair winds to everyone and may you spend as little time as possible in a boatyard. Jim. From: james floyd Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 12:55 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership Hello Jim, I have been working on designing an origami aluminum cat for several months now. It is to be 40'LOA and 24 beam. I hired a Naval Architect who posts on this board to help me. I sent him my hull model and he did some analysis and it looks right to him. If all goes well I'll buy some plate later this summer and get started. It would be nice to have somebody else to bounce ideas around with. my e-mail is jamesfloyd@u... where are you located? I am in north Alabama. Have you had any luck getting the hulls thin enough? James Floyd From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 10:43 pm Subject: Source for lumber I did a little googling, and came up with East-West Urban Forest Products. They use trees that are cut down in cities, and make them into lumber. Got their URL from the Rainforest Coalition, so it's gotta be okay. Really low prices! Beautiful looking wood, too. They are about a 2 hour drive away from me, so not too much of a problem to make a wood run. db From: lon wells Date: Fri Apr 19, 2002 6:56 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Ownership In the US when storing a item of great value, it would be advisable to file a ICC form. That would establish ownership and first lien rights. They are available at most legal forms stores. I managed a project where we had to store a bridge (6 million) and I filed ICC forms for ownership of the bridge. Save reciepts for tax and ownership reasons. From: Gord Schnell Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 3:49 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Ownership I chose to register our boat when it was just a hull and decks. No cabintops, keel, skeg etc. (maybe 2 mths. into the project). No problem. Gord From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 4:48 pm Subject: Re: Ownership Tools and equipment as well as a boat could possibly be seized in payment of a propery owner's debt because the bailiffs think they belong to him. In industry in the UK it is not unknown for customers who have part paid for an item of plant to have labels fixed to the said plant while it is still being worked on in the suppliers factory stating that they are the owners of it. Ted Stone From: "robertbrucejames" Date: Sun Apr 21, 2002 9:58 pm Subject: full keel I am thinking (triing anyway,hope noth'n breaks)of a full keel,flush deck sloop in the 25-30 foot range in the style of the 28'bristol channel cutter. Any ideas out there????????????????? From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:27 pm Subject: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area All, I will be in Seattle with the whole day to kill waiting for a redeye home on Sunday May 5. Is there anyplace I could go to see a Brent Swain boat while I am there? I am awaiting delivery of a set of his plans for a 31' boat. I travel to Seattle every three months or so for a consulting job. A future date would be okay too. Thanks, Gary H. Lucas From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:08 pm Subject: Re: full keel 25 to 30 foot range is a bit too small for a flush decker . It would be tiny inside, or have too much freeboard, and thus be top heavy. There's no real advantage to a full length keel and many disadvantages. The aft end of a full length keel is a real inaccessible rust trap in a metal boat ,and a lot of extra weight in the stern where you need it least. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:12 pm Subject: Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area I'm unaware of any in the Seattle area . Dale Deforest of Deforest Construction in NE Olympia has a 36 footer and knows where there is a 31 footer in the area, called "Quarante Dos." There is a 36 footer called "Island Breeze" in the area, possibly in Port Ludlow area. Brent Swain From: "Gary H. Lucas" Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:04 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area Thanks Brent, I think I'll try to contact Dale Gary H. Lucas From: robert anthony Date: Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area Brent, I have a question for you? I have experimented a bit more with cardboard models. Danny Greene designed a boat (multichine in steel) with a flat bottom. It has 2 chines on each hull half and no chine in the centerline, at least not below the waterline, because it is a flat bottom boat. The idea is to increase useable living space. ( You walk on the flat bottom.) I believe his design is 34.5 feet in length, and he has a flush deck. Your design easily lends itself to this addapation. ln a model I built I even droped the floor about 9 inches. The model seems to be extremely rigid. There appears to be little penalty for using 1/2 inch or thicker steel plate, except for a small increase in wetted surface area and it may save the need for stiffening the hull below the waterline. I can send picture if you request From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:45 am Subject: Re: Brent Swain boats in Seattle area If the bottom is replacing ballast, it would work out in 1/2 inch plate as long as it's flat. It's pretty hard to put any curve in 1/2 inch plate . Plate further up should be 3/16th . Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri Apr 26, 2002 12:47 am Subject: Book Title I'll be changing the title of my book to "ORGAMI METAL BOATBUILDING' Same book , different title. Brent Swain From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 12:49 am Subject: Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook As I embark on the adventure of building a cruising sailboat, I've been doing a bit of reading. Like my shelves are crammed with row after row of books about boats. I've just started reading the "Cruising Handbook", and I can say that even jaded ol' me is very impressed. Calder's ideas seem to fit well into the Origami style, though much of the book is taken up with compensating for the inherent weaknesses of modern fiberglass boats. I'm a total novice, so I want to be lead by the hand. Calder manages to do this without taking a "high-and-mighty" style, more just saying what he prefers and pointing out the weaknesses of other designs. Many other cruising books assume that the reader wants to instantly sail around world, sheets clamped in their teeth as they brave Cape Horn. Calder figures that you want a comfortable boat that you can travel around in, maybe not designed solely for crossing oceans. A worthwhile addition to the boat builder's library! Doug Barnard From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 1:15 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook Thanks for the mini book review, Doug. I'd like to invite anyone else who has interesting books and resources to review to go ahead and contribute. There are many resources out there, some valid, some not so valid, and it would be interesting to mull these over as a group. Myself, I am in the midst of reading Len Sheman's "Arctic Odyssey", an account of a west to east trip through the arctic northwest passage in a small Origami boat. When I am done I'll post something about it. I am also working on a critical analysis of the book "Steel Away", by Sheila Moir. It is solely about traditional steel boatbuilding, but may yield something of interest for the origami crowd. Alex From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Sun Apr 28, 2002 7:25 pm Subject: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW! There's been a discussion going on over on the Trawler World List about the exhaust for the diesel exiting mid-hull, underwater. I was wondering if it might be incorporated into an Origami hull design. I think that a steel pipe or enclosure would be substituted for the fiberglass pipe mentioned. Oh, and no "walk-through"! I'd be worried about back pressure when the boat is stopped; the potato-up-the-exhaust-pipe effect. An Italian manufacturer overcame this by installing additional ports out the side at water level. Reports are also that there are fuel savings when motoring, as the exhaust bubbles reduce the friction. The big advantage is a quieter motor with no muffler, and less fume/soot concentration. I'll order the magazine mentioned on Monday, and give a look at the system. Here's the original post (used with permission): > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-trawler-world-list@s... > [mailto:owner-trawler-world-list@s...]On Behalf Of Arild Jensen > Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 2:38 AM > To: trawler-world-list@s... > Subject: TWL: Underwater exhaust for noise supression > > I can't recall now if it was this list or the live aboard list > that had a thread going about underwater exhaust. However, today > I saw an 86 footer which has the main exhaust in the bottom of > the engine room right next to the engine. > > According to the builder this was a design evolved by their naval > architect some years ago and which they have used on all their boats > since then. The exhaust consist of a 12 inch diameter fibreglass tube > glassed right into the bottom just like you do with a bow thruster > tunnel. except this tube is aimed downwards not out the side. And no > it doesn't have a seacock. The tube is carried up to a point above > the waterline. > > The Vee cylinder configuration engines have a "y" shaped stainless > steel exhaust manifold with flexible bellows style connectors that > leads into the turbo chargers with additional stainless steel tubing > leading to the point of the water injection point, which in turn > connects to the fibreglass tube. > The cooling water injection is a 4 inch fibreglass pipe situated > above the waterline near the top of the galss tube. The exhaust > line rises in an arch to the deckhead before curving downward. > The arch provides a walk through for access to the outboard sides > of the engines. > > Careful shaping of the outer edge at the bottom ensures clean > water flow and they have even measured a negative pressure at speed. > this would indicate the flow of water past the mouth of the exhaust > creates a suction to assist in scavenging the exhaust gasses when the > engines are developing full power. > Apparently all the major engine builders have checked this configuration > and find no problems with it in terms of back pressure. I recall someone > saying this was a major objection to such an arrangement. > > Apart from the noise suppressions, this design is good for mid-ship > engine location since it eliminates the long exhaust tube run aft to > the transom so common in traditional designs. Frees up a lot of space > which is now usable for other things. It also makes for a clean, noise > and fume free swim platform. > With the engine mass centered midships you can also have finer stern > lines since you do not need as much buoyancy right at the stern. > To see an example of this design look at the Feb 2002 issue of Show > boats which featured a vessel called "Watermark". This is a sistership > to the one I was looking at. Just some food for thought. > regards Arild From: "gjm123smau" Date: Tue Apr 30, 2002 1:45 am Subject: Difference in price between Aluminum vs steel . Has anyone compared the differnce with Ali to Steel. The overall cost rust proofing and on going maintance vs intial cost of Ali? Weight savings with Ali, what advantage if any ? Regards Graeme From: "richytill" Date: Wed May 1, 2002 6:32 pm Subject: Lead I have located a 4000 lb lead keel with about 300 lbs of extras. Vanvouver BC area. 1.5% antimony. Just finished sealing of the ballast tank on my project so it's no good to me at this point. If anyone can use it? rt From: "Paul Liebenberg" Date: Thu May 2, 2002 8:07 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Lead How much? From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Fri May 3, 2002 1:57 am Subject: Isolation Transformer I've heard that an isolation transformer is a good idea to keep galvanic corrosion at bay. Others say that a galvanic isolator is good enough. What's the opinion of the list? From: "aklove2u" Date: Fri May 3, 2002 2:34 am Subject: Rigs I'm interested in hearing from all the Brent boat owners who have gone for a bigger stick than the called for 46' one. Whether when sailing other Brent boats or talking to other owners have you noticed a difference and if so what? And what are the luff and foot measurements and any other relevant subject matter. Greg From: "richytill" Date: Sat May 4, 2002 1:07 am Subject: engine A new Farryman R30M (22 hp) with Hurth drive has just become available for someone who is building smaller steel boat or requires less power. The asking price seems to be around $5000. This is just North West of Vancouver BC. rt From: "T & D Cain" Date: Sun May 5, 2002 7:03 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer Depends on the definition and the realisation in hardware. Galvanic isolation is , in simple and unambiguous terms, a device or function which will transfer energy but cannot be electrically continuous from input to output in a way which involves a metallic connection. In other words, if you can find a relatively low resistance connection at any frequency, this includes direct current where the frequency tends to zero, then you do not have galvanic isolation. (Mr. Galvan would agree totally with that proposition). Complications occur in the use of terms such as impedance in the same argument as one uses resistance. Pure galvanic isolation for DC components is realised in the classic double wound transformer which transfers AC energy by means of magnetic flux linking the primary and secondary. At mains power frequencies these devices are built in forms whose mass is proportional to the amount of power you want to transfer. Big is heavy. At current inverter technology frequencies, these devices are quite efficient and very light (mass). One needs to be specific about a device which is labelled a galvanic isolator, and the market place must be able to state what the transfer function is, or what the mechanism is which prevents stray currents from appearing on the ship side of the device. There are a number of ways this can be achieved, but the most fundamental is the double wound or conventional transformer which has no active electronics and no moving parts. Unfortunately they are also heavy and are best arranged as part of the ballast. Terry From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Sun May 5, 2002 9:10 am Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer The 36 footer I just visited with fellow list member Markus simply uses zincs, as far as I know, and has had no problems at all, despite being tied up to a dock with many different kinds of boats. Hardly any wastage of the zincs over long periods of time. But I never asked if they had anything special they used in their electrical system -- I will! Oh, and keep an eye out for photos of that trip -- I'll be posting them shortly. We saw 4 Swain 36's; 3 on land, and one in the water. Alex From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Sun May 5, 2002 4:48 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer Uh, can you please be specific as to products and applications? Know of any ways to set one up on the cheap? Whew! I better refill the coffee before I try to read the post again! Now where did I put those spare brain cells?.... From: "T & D Cain" Date: Mon May 6, 2002 11:34 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Isolation Transformer Sorry Doug, I shall do a bit of trawling on the current offerings for "Galvanic Isolators" and when that is done and time permits, I'll post again. Essence: Keeping the metal boat from being a part of land-based power systems stray currents. Doesn't matter a DRA (dead rat's ass) if you are not connected to shore. Terry (Electrical & Electronics-type person with steel round-bilge 40ft Adams centre cockpit boat approaching completion --- slowly!) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Tue May 7, 2002 2:14 am Subject: New photos of Swain 36 I've just posted a handful of exterior and interior photos of a nice pair of boats I saw on my trip down island, at the Maritime Society docks in Ladysmithin. They are in the photo section under "Two 36 ft Swains". I have a few more to put in that album yet (like the other boat, for instance!) from the same trip, so keep your eyes peeled. Fellow group member Markus, who came all the way from the States to see these boats, met up with me for this trip, and we had an interesting time crawling around and looking at 3 bare hull 36 footers side by side in Yellow Point (south of Nanaimo), as well as chatting with Evan, who welded these (and many others) hulls together. The finished boats in Ladysmith were a treat to see, with everything done pretty much according to the instructions in Brent's book as far as basic structure goes, but lots of interesting customizations as well. I like how these boats reflect their owners tastes and needs with simple changes. Check out the interior shots. All done by the owners themselves, right down to the upholstery (exterior canvas work as well). I think the only thing not made by the owners themselves on this boat were the engine (Isuzu), the ceramic bowl on the head (Jabsco), the hot water heater (Bosch), and propane stove. Cheers, Alex From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Tue May 7, 2002 6:00 pm Subject: Compasses In perusing eBay, I found some specialized compasses for steel boats: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1826718130 Are these a necessity? Can standard adjustments be made to bring a compass more in line? Any compass recommendations? Thanks! From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Tue May 7, 2002 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Compasses The steel boat compass is an interesting find, Doug. I am guessing that those spheres on either side of the compass work on the compass by "over-influencing" the needle beyond the influence of the steel boat. In other words, disturb the magnetic field with a known quantity before the boat's disturbance can get to the compass, and you can get some semblance of control over the beast. Can anyone else illuminate further on this? Alex From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Tue May 7, 2002 7:10 pm Subject: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Hi folks, Do you have any recommendations for an economic and reliable way of sealing the stern tube and propeller shaft in a Swain 36. Regards, Ted Stone From: Stephen Wandling Date: Tue May 7, 2002 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Compasses Alex, You're right in that the 'balls' on either side are moved in or out to provide the least magnetic deviation as possible. This adjustment is done by 'swinging' the boat through a 360 degree rotation, while staying over a fixed geographical point on the bottom. There is a bit of an art to this. Usually, you can not eliminate all of the deviation and will then have a 'deviation card' that indicates the amount of deviation error at various points on the compass. Magnetic deviation is initially related to the steel boat's effect on the compass. Unfortunately this is not a fixed condition and moving a tool box or depleting the canned goods during a voyage can affect the deviation and must be taken into consideration. I recently read about a compass that changed by 10 degrees when the engine was started due to the charging cable from the engine to the batteries running adjacent to the compass. The magnetic field from this cable was the culprit. The compass on eBay is a classic old compass of the type that I recall the US Navy used on small boats that didn't have gyro compasses. The one pictured is pretty big (about 20" wide) for a 30' boat. If you search for "steel boat compass" on Google or where ever, you will se the more modern, scaled down versions now available. I have a wonderful old handbearing compass that I won't be able to use on my steel boat. I've forgotten the name, but it looks a bit like a 3" spare tire. You sight over the top of it and the bearing is 'projected' on the point you are taking a bearing on. It also has a tritium light for night use. I haven't yet seen anything in the way of a hand bearing compass for the steel boat. I guess one option is as the Navy did back when I was in, which was to have a fixed sighting device that gave bearings relative to the boats heading. We always used them with two people, the person doing the sighting calling "mark" when they were on target and the other noting the bearing at that moment. Stephen From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Tue May 7, 2002 9:05 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Names like Lasdrop, Duramax, and PSS shaft seal come to mind. Here's a review You might look for other reviews at: http://www.proboat.com/ http://www.boatus.com/reviews/ Stephen From: Stephen Wandling Date: Tue May 7, 2002 9:12 pm Subject: Taking bearings from a steel boat Further to the thread about compasses for steel boats, here is an article on taking bearings from your boat: http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/bearing.htm I intend to use my GPS for headings (and intend to carry at least two of them), but I will have to have a backup that does not use electricity. This compass, below, apparently sells for US$155, compared to US$500+ for others and looks pretty serviceable. I would like to consider mounting it inside the boat, visible through a Plexiglas panel at the back of the pilothouse. Any comments on whether this will work, vis a vis compensating for deviation? http://www.chicagomarineelectronics.com/NexusSteelBoatCompass100NBC-S.htm Stephen From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Tue May 7, 2002 10:02 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Here's the Powerboat Reports review: http://www.boatus.com/reviews/power/articles/4713-1.asp From: "T & D Cain" Date: Wed May 8, 2002 12:57 pm Subject: Galvanic isolators -- a primer. Most likely some members of the group have seen this one --- a useful primer on the subject. http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/galvanic/ Terry From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Thu May 9, 2002 8:31 am Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Thanks for the info Stephen. Do you have any experience of Moldable Drip-Free/Drip Less Packing? Regards, Ted Stone From: "Ditmore, Stephen" Date: Thu May 9, 2002 1:47 pm Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft I'm afraid not, Ted. Anyone else? From: Alan Smith Date: Fri May 10, 2002 6:51 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Compasses I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses from Richie. They are self-contained and easy to swing. All you do is press a button on the front panel then do a 720 degree turn and you're done. If you add some equipment to your boat just do it again. There is no worry if your electrical system dies. They draw very little current; just milliamps. I tested the unit with a variable power supply down to about 5 volts and it still worked. That means even if your ship's battery is so dead it won't run your reading light, it will still have enough voltage and current capacity to operate the compass. They are relatively expensive but have you priced those metal boat compasses with the external compensation balls? They are not cheap either. Another advantage of flux gate compasses is that they are not affected by magnetic dip. This is the error that results when using a compass in different latitudes than the one it is balanced for. The lines of flux of Earth's magnetic field go from being parallel to the surface, at the magnetic equator, to being vertical at the magnetic poles. The compass card will tend to tilt to make itself parallel to the lines of flux. For this reason compasses have small weights on the card to keep it level on all headings. As you probable know, the magnetic poles are not lined up with the geographic poles so some cruising areas may give your compass trouble. It depends on what zone it is balanced for. Al From: "weekender24" Date: Fri May 10, 2002 8:30 pm Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Second hand information only, but National Fisherman ran an article on moldable packing a while back. At the time I noted that it was being used on some push boats running the ICW and remember that it worked much better than expected, really sealing well even on a damaged shaft. Dave From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Sat May 11, 2002 2:33 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Compasses > I like those 12 volt flux gate electronic compasses > from Richie. I looked on the Ritchie website, but couldn't find a fluxgate compass. Sure that's the manufacturer? From: "weekender24" Date: Sun May 12, 2002 3:09 am Subject: Re: Compasses Try using Google and search under 'fluxgate compasses'. Then search within results for 'Ritchie". I found quite a few entries. Dave From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Sun May 12, 2002 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Thanks Dave, Do you know the name and address of the manufacturer of the Moldable Drip-Free packing? Regards, Ted Stone From: Stephen Wandling Date: Mon May 13, 2002 3:39 pm Subject: No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass I guess this is why we can't find anything on fluxgate compasses on the Ritchie site. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Fluxgate Compass Date: Mon, 13 May 2002 21:49:49 -0700 From: "Steve Sprole" Reply-To: To: "'Stephen Wandling'" Hello, Ritchie did manufacture electronic compasses until this year. We still support the units in the field but no longer manufacture them. Sincerely, Steve Sprole V.P., Marketing RITCHIE NAVIGATION 243 Oak Street, Pembroke, MA 02359 USA 781-826-5131 (voice) 781-826-7336 (fax) Website:http://www.ritchienavigation.com/ From: Alan Smith Date: Mon May 13, 2002 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] No Ritchie Fluxgate Compass That's too bad. I wonder why they stopped making them. They are great units. I guess I'll hang onto mine. Anyway there are other companies that make fluxgate compasses. Most have a separate sensor and display unit. The sensor is mounted remotely at some "magnetically stable" part of the boat and the display can be put where it best suits the helmsman. Usually they allow for more than one display so you could have one down in the cabin too. Al From: "richytill" Date: Mon May 13, 2002 10:48 pm Subject: Enjoyment My son and i arose Sunday morning to bright sunshine, and another chance to raid the dumpsters before the dew evaporated. Came back to the boat with some stainless and a few chunks of 3/4" plate for motor mounts. By mid afternoon we had welded several sequences, or heat cycles on the spacers for the drive plate housing that will link the engine to the transmission and become a motor mount. By evening the housing was complete. Cost: $9.43 in nuts and bolts; salvaged metal (free); left over plate from the keel and a few welding rods with a liberal dash of patience. Result: robust, inexpensive solution--not a "cheap" fix. With a pair of dividers, a few wood wedges and a hammer, centre punch, old angle grinder, cutting torch, drill and a few files we had linked a VW Rabbit diesel motor to a Borg Warner Velvet Drive. A left over 32 tooth spline Volvo marine drive plate we were given free had spawned the idea. Now the idea has has assumed a life and a function. We filed off the corners and wire brushed the product just before sundown. Tried the fit one more time- -plate slides onto dowels like it lives there. Big smiles. For 2 tired guys : a day of enjoyment and learning. Building a metal boat can be rewarding and fun. rt From: Stephen Wandling Date: Mon May 13, 2002 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] Enjoyment Rich, thanks for the most "On Topic" posting I have seen in ages! From: "Doug Barnard" Date: Tue May 14, 2002 2:04 am Subject: RE: [origamiboats] Enjoyment Great post! So where are you dumpster diving? You don't have to reveal your exact source, just the type of place to go looking! From: "richytill" Date: Tue May 14, 2002 9:12 pm Subject: Re: Enjoyment In general, look for large industries or projects that can't afford to pay people to sort out left over materials. A shut down at a pulp mill or refinery is a good clue. Gravel pits, major manufacturing, re-tooling at a sawmill can result in large sectiions being turfed out. I look for new materials that are cut-offs. People will help sometimes if they know it's for a boat--set stuff aside for you. Because it is metal, it is "good as new" in most cases; often it is new and very high quality. There seems to be consensus that using stainless for various fittings and trim can help to make a better metal boat. It is ecologically more effecient to salvage and reuse than to melt down or buy new. Some people will recognise the value of this and donate their surplus. Some won't. We just look for what works. rt From: "brentswain38" Date: Wed May 15, 2002 12:56 am Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Steve tried it on one of my 36 footers , briefly. He said it didn't work and he returned to standard stuffing box packing. Those dripless glands have mixed results. I have a lot of friends who had no luck at all with them and others who swear by them. If a piece of heavy gear gets loose and falls on them they can sink your boat before you find the problem. Either drilling and tapping the sterntube behind the stuffing box , or welding on a 1/8th inch stainless pipe coupler lets you screw the end of a greasegun hose on to the sterntube and pump it full of grease ( Greasguns all have 1/8th inch pipe threads on them and their hoses )You can put several hoses together with brass or stainless 1/8th inch pipe couplers and pemanently mount the greasegun in a convenient location. This lets you pump a bit more grease in whenever you feel the need.This works well as long as you have fairly hard engine mounts. With very soft mounts, the stuffing box gets too hot. Brent Swain From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Thu May 16, 2002 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Thanks Brent, What is your preferred stern gland set up? Custom made or off the shelf? Solid mounted or on a hose connected to the stern tube? Flax packing or a teflon mix? Regards, Ted Stone From: "alex_christie" Date: Fri May 17, 2002 3:19 am Subject: new photos added Group, New photos have been added to the photo album, "Two 36 footers", showing interior and exterior shots of two boats I saw on my trip to Ladysmith with group member Markus. Alex From: "brentswain38" Date: Fri May 17, 2002 7:35 pm Subject: Re: Stuffing box seal for propeller shaft Bronze stuffing boxes are cheap in second hand stores ,and work well. You couldn't justify a custom or new one. The ones which are mounted on a hose are the best. They are a lot more forgiving when it comes to alignment. Solid mounted ones could cause metal fatigue on the shaft if the alignment were less than perfect or if rubber mounts were used. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Sat May 18, 2002 10:19 pm Subject: Re: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW! Several friends have used underwater exhaust.A 10 guage hull with flat surfaces drummed a lot . A 36 footer with a 3/16th hull and 3 cylindre engine had no problem as the exhaust went out through a slighly curved and well re-inforced part of the hull. I tried it with a single cylindre diesel and the drumming was uncacceptable.Extending the exhaust several inches beyond the hull helped a bit but not enough. I now run a dry exhaust out the transom and use a couple of elbows to take it below the waterline where a rubber flap acts as a check valve . It has a 1/4 inch hole in the upper elbow for a siphon break. It has worked well for many years.I threw away the muffler and it didn't make any significant difference to the sound level. Diesel engineers have told me that you can go down 3 feet before back pressure becomes a problem, altho going 6 inches below the surface effectivly kills any sound you would otherwise hear. Brent Swain From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:02 am Subject: much to say, some late As someone who is very interested in origami steel boats, having bought boat plans, presently scrounging and accumulating materials, buying more tools, learning from other owners, and learning basic welding, it is very enjoyable to partake of the information flow on this site. Thank you to all contributors; however, some of you are so knowledgeable in a variety of areas that it is a bit intimidating to a "jack of all trades, and master of none" type of guy like myself! Carol and I even enjoy the personal information that is shared, like "We are begining construction on our Brent Swain 40 footer!" Good stuff this! I've been wanting to post some "thank you's" for a couple of months, but do not want to make one long post (sorry Alex). Instead, I would like to make a few more smaller posts. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:16 am Subject: Thank you ----present owners on Vancouver Island About two months ago, Carol and I made a trip to Van. Is. We saw Brent Swain designed boats, mostly just the outsides, in Ladysmith, Nanaimo and area, Comox, and Courtenay. The owners that we did see were all very pleasant and helpfull ----- Thank you so much for your time and help. For all of the boat owners who heard from their dock neighbours that some people were looking at their boats --- and taking lots of pictures ---- thank you for adding to our enjoyment, and forgive our little liberty of taking all those pictures. ((A matter of respect -----please don't climb aboard a boat unless one's invited ---- even though you may be visiting "by invitation" elsewhere on the dock.)) John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:33 am Subject: congratulations to Daryl & Marlene (not finished yet!) ((Their boat has been launched, it runs under power, but the interior and rigging is not finished)) Congratulations on the launching of your boat!......yes Daryl, you did say "It's not finished." but most people would be elated to be at that stage. Again, "Congratulations", and it was enjoyable to see it "in the water", after having seen it on land. Again, thank you for your hospitality when Carol and I visited two months ago. The fact that you've sailed these waters, as well as sailing to Fiji, then chose this type of boat to build ---- it is very reassuring to novices such as Caro and I. Thank you. John Holdal ((Daryl was doing some welding on the very first Swain boat built by Evan Schaler! Once refurbished, the present owner plans to sail to Hawaii.)) From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 7:51 am Subject: congratulations Winston & Carol - - - -and thank you After 30 years of sailing, a circumnavigation of the world, a trip through the Northwest passage (in book: Arctic Odyssey by Glen Sherman) and having owned eight boats (or is it nine now?), maybe the launch of a new boat isn't quite the event of years past ----but, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE LAUNCHING OF THE "DOVE IV". Carol And I had the good fortune to see it again (and take more picture!) of it tied to the dock. It is beatiful! I can imagine it will be quite a sight, sailing with all sails out. I was pleased to learn that the boat Carol and I have chosen would be the same basic boat, other than your modifications to the pilot house and standing rigging. Your statement that it was a good hull, and your choice of it, settled alot of questions in our mind. Also, your help on your daughter's steel boat confirmed it -----Yes, Carol and I were on the right track. Thanks Winston. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 8:04 am Subject: late, but thank you Brent On our prior trip (two months ago) to Vancouver Island, Carol and I met you to pick up some plans for your 36 foot boat design. Thank you for your patience in answering all of our questions, as well as showing us a few boats ---finished and unfinished. It was a delight! That trip was beyond our expectations. Thanks Brent. Other owners of boats built to your designs have been immensely helpful. We'll be proud to have a "Swain boat". The simplicity of some things you designed is specially confidence building. "Simple" does not break down, or cause problems, as much ---relative to "complicated". John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 8:12 am Subject: Thank you, Jean & Mark On both of our trips to the island, you have been very gracious, patient, helpful, and instructive. Your boat is a delight to look at; so much so that Carol believes that you have equity value in those good looks ----and could sell it for absolute top dollar. You should be very proud of your boat and your efforts. May you have years of excellent sailing. Thank you for sharing with us. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 8:44 am Subject: Thank you - - - Denise & Mike Loucks Thank you for inviting us into your home to "talk boats". As the owners of a 36 foot boat (of which we would like to build a sister ship), your comments and suggestions were much appreciated. I have my heart set on a twin keel, so I was pleasantly surprised when you supported me on this, specially since the "Shinola" has a fin keel. You mentioned that the "Shinola" (Swain 36 footer) was fast and responsive, making it impossible for your friends in their _______u to catch up, on a Mexican trip. As well, with this rudder it allowed for very sharp turning when needed in harbours. Your confidence in this boat, generally, was very good to hear Thanks for letting Jesse show us your boat. Carol & John Holdal ((The Loucks are owners of the "Shinola", which is one of the boats pictured on the back page of Brent Swain's book. ---2 pictures in center of page. Long time water people, they went on a three year cruise with one of their stops being New Zealand ----having to return to Canada so their son Jesse could attend high school(now grown and welding boats!) After a few years back on land they still miss the sea. We ran out of time, so have no idea "if" or "when" they may go again ----their hearts are yearning!)) From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 9:45 am Subject: welding and welders Thank you Steve, Gary, and others for your earlier discussions about welding. It was very informative. ((Now I know ---also corect)) Now that I'm into my introductory welding course at B.C. Institute of Technology, all of those discussions, the course, discussions with the instructors, and the talks with welders like Evan and Jessehave helped clarify my needs and the solutions. My intention was to get someone to weld my hull. I will be purchasing a "buzz box". (for arc welding by stick) Does it look like I have to talk to five or six people before doing anything new???? Maybe!!!! (Yes Brent, you were also correct in your book!) At the beginning, my biggest objective was to understand more about welding to allow better communication with anyone welding on my boat."I want to know what a good weld looks like." was my statement often. Now I understand that a good looking weld does not ensure proper metal fusion. There may be no depth to the weld. Weld testing techniques have shown me that "looks can be deceiving". ( My understanding is that MIG welders can help a poorer welder make better looking welds. ----stated earlier, in diferent words, by group members.) YOU JUST HAVE TO GET A GOOD WELDER! Simple? Luckily, we have very good, experienced welders available. Evan Schaler is well known for having built these boats for years. (see photos in "files" and his email address can be obtained from the member list --- evanmoonjunk, etc.) As a member of this group, he is easily reached. New to alot of us, Jesse Loucks, who sailed with his parents to New Zealand, for a three year cruise, on their 36 foot, Swain, fin keel boat. (Denise & Mike Loucks own the "Shinola". Gee, Jesse --you were "forced" to sail to New Zealand --some people are so "deprived"!) Jesse, now 22, has his "B and C level welding tickets", and is now working on his "A level welding ticket". He has assisted Brent Swain and welded on his own, so now has a few welded boats under his belt. Jesse is thinking of joining our group in the near future, but for now may be contacted at: P.O. Box 1780, Ladysmith, B.C., V9G 1B3 ----Canada, of course. My understanding is that both Evan and Jesse will weld your boat on site -----which for me would be the Fraser Valley. Thanks fellows!! Oh yes, contact them directly if you have any questions for either of them. Should you wish an Okanagan builder, or want to transport a hull, Confidence Custom Boat will weld the hull in Kelowna.( This company was discussed in earlier posts by other members.) Oh!!! Jesse....is he a "sailing welder" or a "welding sailor"? My kids don't think my humour is getting better either!!! Anyone else? There are other very knowledgeable people in our group. Do you build for others? From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 9:55 am Subject: different prices for metals! Gary, You asked for the price of lead earlier, and I gave you new ingot price of $0.63 per pound after taxes, and about 50-55 cents for scrap lead. Those were Vancouver prices. On this last trip to Vancouver Island, I found that everyone there was buying scrap stainless steel and scrap aluminum at about 50% of Vancouver prices! OUCH!!! Maybe someone from Vancouver Island (Gary's boat is being built there) can get you the Island price of lead. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 10:07 am Subject: sad story --- 52 foot steel Robertson sail boat Some coworkers of mine, husband and wife, decided to do some renovations to their 52 foot steel Robertson sailboat that they bought about 12 years ago (not new). Once they started ripping the inside out they discovered that there was nothing between the insulation and the steel hull. Condensation resulted, along with rust. Now their "renovation" is down to bare hull ---so they are doing the painting that should have been done when it was built. Somebody's short cut cost them. John Holdal From: "kayaker_john" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 11:49 am Subject: are there any other launches?--we love to hear about successes Does anyone else know of recent steel origami boat launches? Do more than me like to hear such things? It's good for the soul. ..... Really!!!!! repetitive --John Holdal ok- I'll shut up for awhile......BYE)))))))) From: "Alex & Kim Christie" Date: Fri May 24, 2002 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [origamiboats] much to say, some late Thanks John, for your many thanks. I have met many of the same Swain hull owners while visiting their boats and have always been treated just as nicely. Seems to be a hallmark of the owners of these boats. I've developed a saying which I think typifies the process of building these boats and underlies their philosophy: "Every good Swain boat starts with a good scrounge!" Alex From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Sat May 25, 2002 7:36 pm Subject: welding Brent, Are the longitudinals stitch welded? If so, what spacing do you recommend? Is the stem bar welded in after the two hull halves are welded together, which must be a fairly tricky job, or is it sandwiched between the two semi hulls? Regards, Ted Stone From: "brentswain38" Date: Sun May 26, 2002 12:08 am Subject: Re: welding Ted The longitudinals are stitch welded with a two inch weld every 6 inches on alternating sides of the stringer.Where the ends of the bottom stringer meet the transverse bottom seam it's best to weld them on the inside of the angle only so the short piece you weld in to join the two stringer ends together don't hang up on the welds. The stem bar is welded in after the two halves are welded together, all inside welding of the stem has been done and after the bottom of the anchorwell is in. Brent Swain From: "T & D Cain" Date: Sun May 26, 2002 3:32 am Subject: Engine noise and treatments: Doug Barnard's address. 1. For those looking for information on the sources and controls and/or fixes for noise/vibration, the English monthly --- Practical Boat Owner --- issues Feb. Mar. and April 2002 have a useful series by James Grazebrook ( Halyard Marine --- yes, they sell relevant products ). No real conflict of interest by the way, the articles have a reasonably sound (no pun intended) basis and feature competitive products without bias. 2. Doug Barnard, I have had an e-mail returned from a direct item to your mailbox. I shall try again today and perhaps with indulgence from the group moderator, if direct doesn't work some photos of our Adams40 could be posted here. As indicated in the item for Doug., many of the stainless fittings for this boat have been TIG or MIG or stick welded by myself and some may be of interest to other steel boat constructors. Terry From: kwing175 Date: Mon May 27, 2002 5:31 pm Subject: Swain Dinghy Questions First let me say that Brent's book has really tweak my interest in the Origami boat building approach. Not only from the lay out point of view but, also from the "do it yourself" approach. Thanks to all that make this group so interesting. I have been playing around with the dinghy drawing that Brent provides in his book. I scaled up the plans to make a model out of poster board using hot melt glue as my "welding" process. The approach works pretty well. To quell my curiosity my intent is to build a dinghy starting with a ten foot aluminum panel. I have a welder friend that will do the cutting and welding so that is not an issue for me. But, he is not a boat builder so I better know and understand the process before we get started. The book does not contain much text about actually constructing the dinghy. I have come across a few questions in my modeling efforts. I am hoping that the group can educate me. Questions: 1. My efforts yield a hull shape the has an unusually steep sheer and excessive rocker. Is this because I am using poster board or am I missing something in technique? To obtain the sheer/rocker that appears reasonable I would have to insert quite a large wedge shape into the vertical "weld" on the sides. What am I missing? 2. Amidship the drawing has an athwartship dashed line. The line is labeled seam. Does this imply that the dinghy should be constructed in two pieces? First weld the origami seams and then connect the fore and aft portions of the hull. 3. Does the order in which the panels are "welded" make a difference in how the vessel takes it shape? Centerline "welds", bow and stern first? Then weld the chines. Lastly the bring the vertical side "welds" together. Maybe vice versa? 4. Scaling up the drawing in the book results in the forward chine "tab" narrower than the after chine "tab" (maybe vice versa). Is this a design function? My guess it results from printing and scaling up from such a small drawing. Should the tabs have the same width along the vertical "weld"? 5. The text does not address the transom shape or transom angle. I used a semi-circle with a circumference equal to the width of the plate ends. I glued it in vertically. Am I on the right path? Is there a better approach? On another topic: Are there any Origami and/or twin keel boats being built in the Houston, TX area? Or in the Gulf Coast area? Regards, Keith Wingate Maritime Resource Services P: 281-554-5549 M: 713-202-8674 kwing175@e... From: "brentswain38" Date: Mon May 27, 2002 8:15 pm Subject: Re: Swain Dinghy Questions The amount of rocker you have with any origami boat is directly relative to the amount of flare in the topsides . Pull the topsides together and reduce their flare and the rocker and sheer will flatten. The reason for the midships seam is that aluminium isn't available in the widths it would take to get adequate beam in a dinghy. I used a 5 by 8 foot sheet for mine and had to weld pieces on to get the width. This involved a lot more seam that would have been the case if I had just welded two 4 foot wide sheets together accross the bottom, altho it took less material. I'd weld the complete flat dinghy plate together before trying to pull it into a dinghy.Welding the sides together before pulling the bow and stern together would be easier.The transom can be made more or less whatever shape you want , given approximatly the right width and depth.Shallower sides would make it easier to pull together, but slightly less stable.I'd probably go for a wider transom to improve stability if I were building mine again. I'm not sure what you mean by "Tabs". The shape is quite forgiving . Whatever shape you come up with for your cardboard model is what you'll get in aluminium. I sold a set of plans to a guy in Dallas several years ago. I don't remember his name . One of my 36 footers was trucked to Texas several years ago. It belonged to Jim Perkins, a ham operator who deals in ham radios, etc. Perhaps the other Texas hams will know where to find him. If you find him tell him to send me an e-mail. Those are the only boats of my design I know of in the Texas area. One of my 36 footers was pulled together in Chauvin Loisianna several years ago. Brent Swain From: "greenguy2ca" Date: Mon May 27, 2002 9:30 pm Subject: Registration Just phoned the feds about registering 36' pilot house being built. I got voice mail requesting my name and phone so they could send me a "compliance plate" application, "capacity plate application" and "proof of competency". The last one made me chuckle coming from a civil servant. I have not heard of these applications before except the "boating test". If anyone has experience with this, please reply. Regards.... Gary From: "Newbarndesign" Date: Tue May 28, 2002 2:15 pm Subject: Origami Motor Sailer I am wondering about using the origami design to build a Trawler Yacht style of pilot house on a 36-44 ft hull. I have found a Roberts design, and a Meta design that is similar to what I am looking for. Instead of a center keel I would want lateral fins and two 40-65hp engines. Is it possible to build something like that with this type of hull? Great site, love the idea. 886 Re: Origami Motor Sailer Newbarndesign Wed 6/5/2002 From: "brentswain38" Date: Tue May 28, 2002 7:47 pm Subject: Re: Registration The capacity plate is for little outboard fizzboats , saying how many people it can hold. You can see them on the inside of the transom of fizzies.The "Proof of Competency is for children. Us old farts apparently don't need it until the year 2009. The law just says you must have proof of competency. One could argue that for a court to state that someone who has sat down in a classroom and answered a few questions on a test without ever having set foot on a boat has more proof of competency than someone who has crossed oceans , would threaten to bring the administration of justice into serious disrepute .I'm not sure they even define proof of competency. Brent Swain From: "brentswain38" Date: Tue May 28, 2002 7:52 pm Subject: Re: Origami Motor Sailer Origami building works well for any hard chine hull. Curved surfaces are better as they add stiffness.A trawler design with a little fore and aft curve in the topsides would be a better choice . Determine the plate shapes and make a model to see how it all works out . Whatever you get with a model you'll get in the finished boat. Brent Swain From: "islands502000" Date: Tue May 28, 2002 8:17 pm Subject: Steel cutting Frist I wish to thank all of the members of this group, and especialy the founder, I am new, and located this site yesterday. My question is thus, does anyone know a place that I can have steel cut I am looking for a plasma, or water jet service in So. Calif. also can anyone recomend a site that I can have my plans done to give me a CNC cutting file or disk??? Thank you all John From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Wed May 29, 2002 9:54 pm Subject: Anchor winch Brent, With regard to the anchor winch in your book: Is there a brake on it to control paying out and to stop the drum over running when the anchor is being lowered? Regards, Ted Stone From: "brentswain38" Date: Thu May 30, 2002 9:00 pm Subject: Re: Anchor winch Ted I've never felt the need for a brake on the anchorwinch. Just put your foot against the side of the drum to stop it from overriding. When you want to stop the boat, drop the handle pawl.It's a good idea to weld on a bit of stainless plate to stop the pawl and handle from chipping the deck paint to bare steel, or put some kind of stops on the winch frame . Brent Swain From: "edward_stoneuk" Date: Thu May 30, 2002 11:38 pm Subject: longitudinals Brent, Thanks for the winch info. Another question: The bill of materials calls for 10 angles for the hull longitudinals. How are they laid out? I can see 4 a side in the drawings and photos. I assume they are positioned with their midpoint perpendicular to the hull midpoint. There seem to be two angles left over. Regards, Ted Stone 882 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Fri May 31, 2002 8:16pm Subject: Steel Cutting John, I don't know Southern California so I would try a directory such as yellow pages. They are on the web. Then once you have a few names phone and enquire. If they cannot help you, perhaps because their equipment is too small for the plate size you want, ask them if they know of any body who can. Invariably they will try to be helpful, you may be a future customer. If you try this a few times and get pointed to the same place you will then know that the companies they recommend are well thought of in the business. I often do this when I don't know of any suppliers. If possible I go for three prices as they can vary enormously. Some of the companies may have CAD draftsfolk who can take your paper plans and put them on a disk for use by the cutting machine. If not ask if they know of someone who can. Hope this is of some help. Regards, Ted Stone 883 From: greenguy2ca Date: Mon Jun 3, 2002 1:41am Subject: Messages Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages in a book format ... example pdf format. Gary 884 From: brentswain38 Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 3:00am Subject: Re: longitudinals Ted - I used to put in three longitudinals on each side bottom plate and two on each side topside plate,roughly equally spaced. Since I started going for integral tanks on the centreline, I've been cutting the bottom longitudinal in half and putting each half in front of and behind the tank ends, as well as using some of it for other uses such as stffning the sides of the wheelhouse below the windows .They are more or less equally spaced, dividing the distance from the chine to the centreline and chine to deck equally. Their exact spacing isn't critical as all they do is increrase the overall stiffness of the plate. Brent Swain 885 From: T & D Cain Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 11:29am Subject: RE: Enjoyment RT, The Rabbit got my attention. The attached photos show a neat raw water pump arrangement and the ass end has an aquadrive CV insert to fit in the space. The shaft is offset to port of the centreline and those who might like to guess at why are welcome to reply -- think about the fabrication issues and about "P effect" for an inclined prop in a horizontal stream for a right-hand rotation prop. If you want more info drop me a mail. Terry Attachment 242k (image/jpeg) 108-0816_IMG.JPG Attachment 229k (image/jpeg) 108-0817_IMG.JPG Attachment 221k (image/jpeg) 108-0819_IMG.JPG 886 From: Newbarndesign Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 5:44pm Subject: Re: Origami Motor Sailer I will give it a shot, what is the largest hull that would be possible with this design. I was hoping to get around 38' to 44', based on interior layouts of similar designs. Thanks Phil 887 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Jun 5, 2002 9:46pm Subject: Re: Indexing of Messages > Just wondering.. (Alex) is there a way to print all of the messages > in a book format ... example pdf format. Gary So far there is no function which could do this short of taking every message and cutting and pasting into one document. The only thing possible on Yahoo is to search the archived messages from the group's home page, and this does work after a fashion (except no browse function). I am, however, working on setting up a real website independent of this one (it will likely be called origamiboats.com), and the message archiving system would be much more user-friendly, out of the control of Yahoo and into my hands. There is definitely lots of useful information buried in the old messages, and certainly worth putting into some kind of indexed format. Thanks for the idea --- I'll see what I can do. Alex 888 From: Richard Routh Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 3:09am Subject: Re: Indexing of Messages Hello, Depending upon the method of message storing and the format/syntax of those stored messages I think there is a way using cURL. cURL picks up text from web pages and the resulting output could be stored in a Comma Separated Variable (CSV) file. These CSV files could then be assembled upon threads into a spreadsheet , table or database. It is no trivial task. It is possible I could volunteer some time if I had help with this. If three or more would volunteer with me it would be a bit easier. Regards, Richard 889 From: maxxard Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: Indexing of Messages Folks, You might like to look at a website I threw together from your group by pointing your browser to: http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/index.htm Its 282 Kb for those with low bandwidth. Its a threaded index of everything up to message 887, without adverts. The links to the messages work, but as I am not Yahoo, the links to authors don't, and links inside the messages may or may not work. Also, and probably more usefully for your purposes, I have put up a page with all the messages in it. It is over 3Mb, so I don't suggest dialup users open it, unless they really want to wait a while for it to download. Its at: http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com/origamiboats.htm I can't leave it there forever, so if someone can let me know when they have got themselves a copy, I will take it down. Hope this helps. Jim Price (bored benevolent webhacker looking for work with a friend who reads your group) 890 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 6:53pm Subject: Re: Re: Indexing of Messages Thanks Jim, I think that fulfills our wishlist for a printable version of the messages! Now, is it possible to zip that file of messages up into a small package and put it in our "files" section? I am not sure how to compress it. Alex 891 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 6:56pm Subject: New file uploaded to origamiboats Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /origamiboats.zip Uploaded by : maxxard Description : Zip file containing web page of the history of the groups messages. 892 From: maxxard Date: Thu Jun 6, 2002 7:00pm Subject: Re: Indexing of Messages Alex, It zips down to 521 Kb - its in your file area, as you may already have noticed. Jim 893 From: cain1937au Date: Sun Jun 9, 2002 8:34am Subject: Apologies to all. My initial attempts to upload some steel boat detail photos were thwarted by my Zone Alarm Pro firewall, resulting in an unexpected and unheralded lockup on two occasions. Whilst investigating this behaviour, I decided to attach some files to a group e-mail and this was a mistake for which I apologise --- especially to those on slow modem connections. The photos now uploaded are not of a boat built using the group's preferred method, however, we share many elements of steel boat construction techniques. My boat is fabricated using cold stretch- rolled plate sections with much welding. Had I been starting construction these days, the origami concepts would have been in the shortlist of options. I follow the group's progress with interest. Terry Cain 894 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:01pm Subject: Half angle of entrance Brent My cardboard model of the 36' has quite fine bows. Are there any figures for the half angle of entrancce, or to put it another way does the boat tend to cut through waves or to go over the top? Regards, Ted Stone 895 From: greenguy2ca Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 2:57am Subject: Following Sea Brent: Along the lines of the previous email about performance, have you ever needed a sea anchor or does the twin keel perform well enough in those conditions. How about the fin keel same question? thanks Gary 896 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Jun 12, 2002 7:57am Subject: website with 39 footer Tony Bigras of Nanaimo has put up some photos of the Ian Leckie hull in Alberta, a 39 footer which I have photographed before, at this website: http://malvm1.mala.bc.ca/~bigras/o7/ian.htm Alex 897 From: sollitc Date: Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:20pm Subject: Sail Track Does anyone have names and telephone numbers of US suppliers of aluminum sailtrack? Chuck Sollitt 898 From: kupris1948 Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 5:15pm Subject: bottom paint for steel with cte base Boat builder magazine, author Dudley Dix, Mar/apr 1990, says most bottom paints use cuperous oxide for the toxin. Searching "origamiboats" archives yields slim pickins. What are sailors using in this politically correct age? When I was young and poorer I would make my bottom paint out of enamel and ground up Copper Sulfate crystals. I'd probably go to jail now for that. 899 From: brentswain38 Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:43pm Subject: Re: Half angle of entrance The fullness of the stem profile determines the amount of buoyancy above the waterline. With a good outside curve in the stem, the topsides above the waterline are curved well out and give a lot of reserve buoyancy there . A straight stem would give flat topsides and little reserve buoyancy above the waterline and a clipper bow would mean even less reserve buoyancy above the waterline foreward. This is why , when a clipper bow hits a head sea, the boat tends to plunge to the deck line, then stop dead in it's tracks . There is no such problem with the 36 as it's designed and it goes thru a head sea effortlessly, a vast improvement over my first two boats which had fairly flat topsides above the waterline in the bow. Brent Swain 900 From: brentswain38 Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:49pm Subject: Re: Origami Motor Sailer No Added Message - see 902 901 From: brentswain38 Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 8:57pm Subject: Re: Following Sea Gary I've only had to use a drogue once, coming home from Mexico, to avoid losing my westing in a westerly gale at 35 degrees north. I hung a tire off the stern as with a drogue off the stern a boat lies dead stern to the wind and doesn't yaw about like it does when moored from the bow. This greatly reduces the load on the drogue and it's line, and makes it far more effective . There is plenty of reserve buoyancy in both ends of the 36, far more than in many boats. Brent Swain 902 From: brentswain38 Date: Mon Jun 17, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Re: Origami Motor Sailer Two 53 footers were recently built using origami boatbuilding methods, but the biggest origami boat I've seen built was a 60 footer . No problems. Brent Swain 903 From: Brian Dixon Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 0:01am Subject: Re: Re: Half angle of entrance Brent, Not having the benefit of a picture in front of me, I'm a bit confused about your stem line description. You say 'in profile', which I take to be looking directly at the boat from port or starboard. You mention a difference between a straight stem (in profile) and one that bellies out (has camber when viewed in profile), and reserve buoyancy. The reserve buoyancy discussion makes perfect sense and is something I've observed through real-life use of boats (not sailboats though..sorry.) What confuses me is the relationship between reserve buoyancy and the stem line. I think they are separate variables to a great extent. For example, if you look at the bows of some boats, you see in profile that they are straight as an arrow. If you look at a plan view with various waterlines shown, e.g. starting at the DWL and working your way up towards the sheer, some of these boats are designed with an ever- broadening curve (less fine) in the bow area...reserve buoyancy, but with a stem line that is straight when viewed in profile. Boats like this will rise above 'big water' rather than tending to dive into it. I can point to examples that are the other way too. For example, a nice pretty camber to the stem line when viewed in profile, and the half angle stays equally fine right up to the sheer ... more like the clipper you mention. Boats like this clearly have less reserve buoyancy and will tend to drive into 'big water' rather than rise above it. Did I misunderstand your explanation? Brian 904 From: sunyataspirit Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:25am Subject: metal boat society I would like to suggest to all group members that a visit to metalboatsociety.com will prove both enjoyable and enlightening.There is a vast array of most useful information in the forum sectionthat applies to any metal boat building effort. The site ties in verynicely with the origami group as most enthusiasts are home builders.Brent Swain also offers further sterling advice. Should an official origami website be set up, the style and ease ofuse of theformat used by the aforementioned site would be one to emulate. (As an aside, Alex, any info on Gene Wunderlin and his hull?)Cheers, Richard 905 repeat of 904 906 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:37am Subject: Re: Re: Half angle of entrance Regarding stem profiles: Here are some photos of the bow profile in question which show the relationship between the curve of the stem and the fullness of the bow. The bow-on shot definitely shows nice full forward sections, as described by Brent. Standing by these boats on land, I always marvel at how much curve (and fair at that) there is to the bow shape, almost like a submarine (the twin bilge fins jutting out of the underbody at 90 degree angles to the plate seem to add to this impression). The other outstanding impression one gets from looking at these hulls is the almost complete absence of "angularity" and flat planar surfaces normally associated with steel boats. Looking at any of the Swain hulls it is easy to see that their shape suggest that as the bow immerses, it should pick up bouyancy very quickly. I am running more on theory here, gleaned from documenting a lot of these boats, but it looks like the curve and the fullness are inter-related in this scenario --- this could be a function of the origami system of pulling the hull half-shells together starting at the bow and tab-welding your way aft along the centreline. Perhaps Brent can illuminate this point; does the contraction of the plate material along the centreline (due to cooling after welding) influence this full or convex shape? It would be interesting to know, as it certainly looks like it. All I know for certain is that this is an entirely different building process than the traditional method of hanging a plate on a pre-existing framework, and it yields very different results. I've examined the bow sections of some traditionally built steel boat hulls (eg Roberts) with straight stem profiles and hard chines that run right to the bow, or very nearly so (to a piece of pipe taper-cut with the narrow part at the bottom of the stem) . While this yielded a somewhat racy "modern" look, plus the knife-like immersed forefoot of racing boats, I don't think the results of such a form in actual use would have been very pleasing in function in other than optimal sea-states (ie, no big waves, no swell), at least not for a steel boat. How often do we have wind but no waves or swell? The foward sections would not be as full as they should be (just a straight angle up the sides to the deck, as opposed to the curved shape of the Swain bow). It seems to me that a "racing" type bow-stem belongs on a lighter composite hull, where the weight up forward is less (race boats don't even store anything up there but a few sailbags), and the purpose is speed more than anything. With any steel hull that attempts to copy modern racing boats out of other materials, I am imagining the sorry result to be a lot of bow-plowing and wild action on the helm in a bad sea. But since I haven't tried such a boat I cannot say for sure, so I won't delve further into conjecture lest I overstep the bounds of my knowledge (if I haven't done so already). Enuff of my theories, just look at the photos and tell us what you think, people, we're all ears! Alex 907 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:21pm Subject: Re: Re: Half angle of entrance I have a question about all this for Brent. I bought a copy of his plans for the 31' boat to learn more about the Origami process. At the moment I have no intention of actually building a boat, but I am willing to pay for my education. I thought I understood how the metal bends, in conical sections. I took his hull lines for the 31' boat and scanned them and brought them into Rhino 3D. I have been trying to apply surfaces to the curves to better understand the shape. I was also hoping that this would provide me with a 3D hull model that could be used to accurately develop the interior design of a boat. The problem is that the bow and stern of the boat, according to the lines drawing are not in conical in shape. They appear to be real compound curves in 3 dimensions. If the shape was all cylindrical and conical sections it would be very easy to model a hull and then unroll it to produce a pattern. This doesn't appear to be the case. It appears to me that the bow and stern acquire a compound curve during the process of pulling in the edges of the sheets and forcing them to also follow the deck edges. I can create a surface that agrees with Brent's hull lines but it will no longer be a developable surface that unrolls. I had hoped that Brent's construction method was purely mathematical in nature and that one could develop other hull shapes using this technique in a 3D program. It looks though that Brent's method is mostly the result of empirical experimentation over successive models until he arrived at the desired shape. I was also wondering how Brent drew his hull lines. Were the lines taken off of an existing boat? My attempts at creating a boat hull using fully developable surfaces always seems to run into the same problem. At both the bow and stern a 'crease' is required in the conical surface for it to follow both the deck surface and the seam at the center line of the hull. The hull will plate up easily, it just won't look very fair. I have been too busy lately to look for ways to solve this problem. Gary H. Lucas 908 From: Ditmore, Stephen Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 2:45pm Subject: conic developability I, too, will be interested in Brent's response to Gary. I don't want to preempt that, but I've posted speculation as to how one might develop the origami shape conically in the form of two 2D images downloadable from http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=b9af476a5e4673f5a048389c2634edf8&threadid=248 Gary, you might also want to check out the software at http://www.algonet.se/~ludesign/LUproj7.html Stephen Ditmore New York 909 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 7:35pm Subject: Bow Profile Photos Alex & Kim, Judging from the "barcoding" along the side of the hull in the bow profile photos the longitudinals are continued almost to the stem. Was this the case and is it strictly necessary? Regards, Ted Stone 910 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 8:18pm Subject: Re Half angle and compound curves Gary and Stephen, When steel plate is cut with a gas axe or welded the heat will cause some deformation. I have just welded on the longitudinals and gunwhale pipe and cut out the shape of a half hull. The heat involved has already curved the plate mostly in the right places. I am a learner in this and some of the curves I would rather they were not there. Steel, especially heat affected steel is not inert as say plywood is. This would make the construction difficult or impossible to model in most hull development programmes. I used Brent's 36' plans to draw it on AutoCAD then printed it off and made cardboard model of it. Regards, Ted Stone 911 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:17pm Subject: Re: Half angle of entrance The more curve you put in the stem, the more curve you have in the transverse sections.The waterlines remain straight as the bow sections are portions of a cone with the apex of the cone being at the end of the chine.There is no curve along the cone, only accross it.Check the fullness of the transverse sections at the bow when there is a good outside curve to the stem . Alex , you are right on all points. Brent Swain 912 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: Half angle of entrance Gary Make a model out of sheet material and it will explain it better than any computer model. The hulls have all come out totally fair. The way I got the shapes was as mentioned in my book. I drew the lines, did all the calculations on the lines drawings, then made a model. I took the topside and bottom plate shapes off the model, cut the bottom plate in half, and attached the bottom pieces to the bow and stern where the chines would have been. This makes no real difference to the underwater area of the sections there as any area which disapears at the would be chine in the bow and stern is added on either side of the ex-chine. There is a certain amount of compound curve introduced by shrinkage of the welds and cuts along the seams. This is minimal in the conic ends, but amounts to about 1 1/4 inches of curve between the chine and the sheer amidships, less if a plasma cutter is used. Some people have designed successful origami boats using my methods on the computer with no problems, so it can be done. Brent Swain 913 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:36pm Subject: Re: Bow Profile Photos There is no need whatever to run the longitudinals all the way to the stem. The conic curves make the hull phenominally strong there. They may actually reduce the hull's resilience there. Evan shaler , who has built many excellent hulls of my design always insists on running the longitudinals all the way ,although he hasn't come up with a good reason for doing so . I've always only run the longitudinals ten feet either side of amidships as have all experienced ocean cruisers building my designs, and there has been no reason so far for doing otherwise. Brent Swain 914 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Jun 18, 2002 9:42pm Subject: Re: Re Half angle and compound curves As long as you put the longitudinals on while the hull plate was flat, there is no need to worry about shrinkage caused by welding the bulwark pipe on.When you lift the ends of the plate and prop up the sheer amidships to give a bit of angle to the chine, it will spring into a beautiful , fair ,slightly compound curve. Brent Swain 915 From: alex_christie Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:16am Subject: 40 foot Swain - new images in photo section Dear Group, I've uploaded an album of some interesting 3-D renderings of the Swain 40 created by 3-D artist Doug Barnard, a member of the Origamiboats list who will be building one of these boats. He has done an excellent job --- thanks Doug! Alex 916 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:51pm Subject: Re: 40 foot Swain - new images in photo section Alex, Drawings s01, s02, and s03 illustrate the problem I am having. It looks to me as if Doug lofted the surface over the lines of the hull. You can produce a very fair curved surface this way, but there is absolutely no guarantee that you can unroll the surface into a flat pattern. You could of course piece the hull together from small compound curved pieces. These three images seem to show a soft rounded chine, not a hard chine that Brent's boats have. They also show considerable rounding where the stern quarters meet the transom, again something you don't see on Brent's boats. I can't see how you would get from this model to an actual boat without serious trial and error cutting and fitting. I have attached two views of my crude model. Note the creases I got when I swept one end of a straight line along the rail edge and the bottom seam of the hull, while the other end is held at the end of the chine. Very ugly, but this hull shape is a mathematically accurate surface that unrolls to a flat sheet, without the need to force it into a compound curve. It also could be cut from steel and be formed into a hull that would exactly match my model. Interior components could be derived from this hull surface and they would fit in the finished steel hull to a very high level of precision. Gary H. Lucas 917 From: Doug Barnard Date: Wed Jun 19, 2002 9:01pm Subject: RE: 40 foot Swain - new images in photo section > From: Gary H. Lucas [mailto:gary.lucas@v...] > It looks to me as if Doug lofted the surface over the lines of > the hull. You can produce a very fair curved surface this way, > but there is absolutely no guarantee that you can unroll the > surface into a flat pattern. You are correct, sir! I totally cheated on the hull, and just sort of slopped it in. One of the unique things about a Swain design is that they don't have a standard Table of Offsets, so I can't match up my model to them. After I draft in the cutting plan, I'll make a scale model and take some measurements from that. Sounds 'Stone Age', I know, but I can't figure out a better way to do it. At least I won't use cubits as my measurement! The primary purpose of the model was to prove out the overall dimensions, and make sure that the boat could do what was demanded of it, interior-design-wise. My wife is a masseuse/acupuncturist, and needs to be able to have enough open floor space to be able to give treatments. We also wanted a spacious galley, and comfortable master stateroom. I also needed a 'workshop', the small area abaft the nav station. Those of you that have read the Pardeys should be able to relate. Having a double-bunk second stateroom makes for better charterablity, I think. The cockpit was to be sleepable, and a fairly generous size. So after spending a bunch of time, and trying some fairly wacky arrangements, I basically went with Brent's original plan. The pilothouse was moved forward a bit, and made slightly longer. Doug Barnard soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" near Ventura, CA http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream 918 From: robert44654 Date: Sun Jun 23, 2002 4:26am Subject: dingy I built a 7 1/2 foot fiberglass dingy to brents plans in the book. I put an electric motor on the back and let my 10 year old go in the marina- he had a blast! The freeboard in the boat appears to be low, although, my son who weighs 100# and a battery and electric motor did not take on any water. What would be the minimium size you would recommend to carry 2 or 3 adults? PS- the boat probablely weighs 50-60 #s. It is built like a tank- I mean I think I could drive it through the dock! Maybe I over did the amount of fiberglass. Any thoughts? 919 Missing 920 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:27pm Subject: Hulls in the vancouver area. Hello all. I was wandering, is anyone aware of any "work in progress hulls" in the Vancouver area. I would like to have a look at them to help understand some of the finer details of this part of the opperation. Cheers 921 From: Brian Dixon Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:50pm Subject: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. No, but which Vancouver? Canada or Washington or? 922 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:22pm Subject: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. Sorry, Vancouver BC, Canada. 923 From: gschnell@s... Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:49pm Subject: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. I cuurently building a 40' in Richmond, BC. Gord 924 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:06pm Subject: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. Thank you for the reply. Where is the hull currently and would you be OK with someone (me) having a look around? 925 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:20am Subject: Diesel engine package. Hello all. I have a completely rebuilt Yanmar 2GM20F for sale, I was saving this for my own project, but as I yet have to begin with a hull I think my limited funds would be better served to begin with a hull and such. Hence I will sell the engine/transmission package and go from there. The engine was recently rebuilt by authorized marine diesel distr to the tune of $3600.00. It includes an engine, transmission, coupling & instrument panel. I will atempt to attach a copy of the invoice and a photo. If this does not work I will place a copy of the receipt and some photos in the files section. Thank you. 926 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:33am Subject: Re: Diesel engine package. What is the horsepower of the engine? Also, what is the gear ratio on the transmission, and what make of transmission (eg. Borg-Warner, Hurth, etc). Alex 927 From: origamiboats@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:34am Subject: New file uploaded to origamiboats Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the origamiboats group. File : /Yanmar diesel engine./top view.JPG Uploaded by : rbyzitter2001 Description : top view. 928 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:56am Subject: Re: Diesel engine package. The continuous HP rating is is 16/3400 rpm, or 12/2500rpm. The transmission is Yanmar KM2-C 2.5/1. 929 From: gschnell@s... Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:34pm Subject: Re: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. The boat is in East Richmond. Your welcome to come over and have a look. When would you be available? I'll need to unlock for you. Gord 930 From: gschnell@s... Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:47pm Subject: Re: Diesel engine package. Have you considered splitting the package up? If so, what type and model is the transmission? Gord 931 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. I work in the Tilbury Ind. park area of Delta, so, anytime would be easy for me. It's just a short hop over the bridge or through the tunnel. Where about in east Richmond? Cheers. 932 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:15pm Subject: Re: Diesel engine package. It's a Yanmar Transmission. I would rather not break them up. As it is a current "of the shelf" factory package as it site right now. Are you looking for a transmission? If so what are the specifics? Cheers 933 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:22pm Subject: Chine welding Brent, Is there a recommended way and sequence of welding the longitudinal chine seam and transverse seam? Regards, Ted Stone 934 From: Gord Schnell Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:56am Subject: Re: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. She's at the south end of Boundary Rd (4693 Boundary Rd.). I'll br there Thurs. after 4PM. Gord 935 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:12pm Subject: Re: Hulls in the vancouver area. I will try and get down there, it will be after 4 some time dependant on traffic. Thank you. Cheers. 936 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:28pm Subject: attachments Hello. How does one attach photos to a posting? 937 From: brentswain38 Date: Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:23pm Subject: Re: Chine welding The chine seam is not all that critical. I usually weld the inside first,with 1/8th inch 7024, with six inch welds, moving about randomly until they all connect.Then I grind all the slag out from the outside with a 1/8th inch cutting disc , and weld the outside the same way with 5/32 6011. For the transverse seam across the bottom,I do the weld when each side is together , before pulling the centreline together. I usually grind a full 45 degree bevel on one edge for full penetration , then tack several pieces of scrap accross the seam on edge,and the connecting pieces for the stringers to keep it straight and stop it from kinking downward or up, during the welding.Putting a piece of dunnage under the seam and letting the weight of the hull come down on it will usually bulge this seam upward. You can then tack the scrap pieces and pieces of stringer to one side of the seam , then pull the dunnage out and it wil fall back to a straight position. I then weld it with 1/8th inch 7024 in three inch tacks, moving about randomly until they all connect. I then break the scrap pieces off and weld where I've missed. The outside weld, I do after the hull has been pulled together . There I grind the slag out and weld it up with three inch welds with 1/8th inch 6011, moving about randomly until they all connect. I then grind them flush . If you can't get full length plates , and have to do a seam in the middle of the topside plates, it's best to do the inside weld while the plate is flat on the ground, with 1/8th inch 6011,and short two inch welds , letting each one cool before putting another weld next to it, and lots of stiffners accross the seam.Make sure it stays flat during the welding. After the hull is pulled together, I weld the outside with very small uphand welds of about two inches each with 1/8th inch 6011. If they don't come out fair, these welds can easily be cut and corrected after the hull is together , and the decks are on.For the transverse bottom seam, cutting it free and pumping it back into shape with a hydraulic jack off the ground ,is easy. Brent Swain 938 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 1:19pm Subject: Welding Rods Brent, With regard to your recommendation of 6011 and 7024 rods. What properties are you particularly interested in? The reason I ask is because my usual supplier sells Thyssen rods and they don't do 6011 although they have five types of 6013 and two of 7024 amongst others. I use a high frequency DC welder. I welded the chine starting from both ends. As I pulled the bottom sheets together, which causes the chine angle to change, some of the existing welds in 6013 cracked longituduinally down the centre. It is no problem to grind and reweld but obviously I would like to do it right this time. The other thing is that the transverse join overlaps which is obviously better than not meeting and understandable given usual welding tolerances. Do you have any advice on getting a decent fit other than offering it up and trimming off? Regards, Ted Stone 939 From: Brian Dixon Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 5:50pm Subject: RE: Welding Rods I'm not building an origami boat, but am interested in them since I'm in general interested in building metal boats. I'm in the middle of welding classes and working towards "all steel, all thicknesses, all positions" certification. Your note below raises several issues that we've been covering in class, so I'll tell you what my book and teacher have been saying. Those with more practical experience can add/subtract from what I'll say: - 7024, aka "Jet Rod" (great stuff) is very easy to use, but does not penetrate deeply. Good for back side tack welding and applications where high strength is not needed. - 6010 & 6011 are _deep penetrating_ fast-freeze electrodes that work well for overhead and vertical welds in addition to the other weld positions. Works well for unbeveled joints due to their 'digging' characteristic. Requires higher skill. Ideal for odd-position welding where high strength is required. Downside is that these electrodes spatter more. - 6013 is a _shallow penetrating_ fill-freeze electrode that is good for poor fit situations. Good for beveled joint welding. This electrode is a general purpose electrode for production operation but is not for high strength applications. For high strength applications, my instructor recommends 7018 for flat and horizontal (I think) welds, but 6010 or 6011 for vertical and overhead welds. 7024 and 6013 are fine if you don't need the high strength. If you have gaps, rust, galvanizing, or are welding pipes, use 6010/6011. 7018 requires clean metal, otherwise you can get porosity. For your cracking problem, hmmmm, could be several problems. Porosity is one, e.g. from atmospheric contamination (a breeze where you were welding, welding technique, contamination due to humidity or age etc.) Porosity can result in a weak bead that cracks longitudinally. Lifting the rod from the end of the weld too quickly (loss of shielding) can start a crater crack which propagates. Mismatch of rod to base metal (doesn't apply here.) With high stress on a 6013 weld, the crack may have started at the filler-to-base metal interface because 6013 doesn't have as deep a penetration as 6011 for example. A combination of the above...you'll have to examine your welds to figure out which issue(s) you might have. Note: I hope I'm not too far off here...just passing on class notes really, because I don't have a helluva lot of welding experience yet. Someone else might provide a more pragmatic answer, but I thought I'd share what we've been told anyway...some things to think about I guess. Welding's not a simple topic and does require a reasonably high level of expertise to get it right. Brian 940 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 1:49am Subject: Re: Welding Rods Brian, It all sounds about right to me. A few minor additions. Pipe welders often use 6010 as a root pass then cap it with 7018 to eliminate pinholes. We used to do this in a plastics plant where we had lots of welded piping carrying oil at 525 degrees Fahrenheit. 7018 should be kept in a heated rod oven. If the coating picks up moisture it welds poorly. 7018 will make a nice bead in the vertical position but the very fluid slag covering takes skill to control. 6013 is popular for low pressure water pipe welding in the greenhouse industry, but it sure doesn't make very strong welds. Gary H. Lucas 941 From: Brian Dixon Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 2:54am Subject: RE: Welding Rods Thanks for the additional info. I had forgotten that my instructor mentioned that the fill/cap with 6010/7018 is common. I'll ask him some more about that to get his feedback...he worked in industry for about 20 years, and now has over 20 years as a teacher and has seen over 3000 of his students become certified..impressive. He's full of info and advice on how NOT to do it and how TO do it. I look for him in particular when I sign up for classes. It surprises me that the one fellow's, Ed I think, welding supply shop didn't have 6010/6011. You'd think 6010/6011 and 7018 would be the staples of the industry and no welding shop should be without the full set... 942 From: greenguy2ca Date: Mon Jul 1, 2002 4:53pm Subject: A few good stuffs I will be in the market soon for a used diesel, lead for keels and stainless lifelines. Boat is located at Nanaimo BC. If there is any advantage to joint purchase or any leads would be appreciated. Thanks.... Gary 943 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 0:29am Subject: Re: Welding Rods Brian and Gary, Thanks for your advice. I spoke to the Thyssen technical rep about the welding rods and especially the 6011 and the 7024 that Brent recommended in his mail. The rep advised that 6011 is the AC version of 6010. Thyssen is a German company where they tend to use only DC welders; so that is why they don't sell 6011 rods. Neither of the two suppliers that I use, one selling Oerlikon rods and one Thyssen, keep 6010 rods in stock. They refer to them as pipeline rods so I guess they don't have any pipeline welding customers or customers that weld mostly from one side. The rods must be kept dry and not re-dried so I guess unless you need deep penetration then a 6013 rod is easier to look after. My understanding of the AWS numbering system is that the first two numbers refer to the tensile strength, e.g. a 60** rod has a tensile strength of 60,000 p.s.i., the third number shows the welding positions, e.g. **1* equals any position, **2* equals flat and the last number I cannot remember what it means. The 7024 rod is therefore, if I have got this right, a 70,000 psi rod suitable for flat welding. It also has iron powder in the coating, which gives weld metal recovery greater than 100%. On reflection the weld cracking on my project was caused by the fact that the weld metal was thinner than the plate and when it was bent the stress was greatest at the weld and it cracked. The plate was bent as the side was pulled together and this is before the other side of the join is welded. This would be a good reason for using a rod such as the 7024 that is stronger and lays down plenty of steel. Brian your course instructor sounds a bit more knowledgeable than mine at a local technical college evening classes last winter. When I asked him about the properties of the different rods he replied "Well some welders like to use one sort and some another". Probably true but not the answer I was expecting. Regards, Ted Stone 944 From: Brian Dixon Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:15am Subject: RE: Re: Welding Rods Unless I misunderstand what you are saying below, it sounds like you've still got some reversals of logic going on. Here: - 6010 and 6011, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are for high strength applications because they penetrate the base metal deeper. One can be used AC or DC, the other DC-only I believe...too lazy to look it up right now. - 6013, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, are *not* for high strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very deeply. - 7018, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is for high strength tough applications because of not only it's deeper penetration but also because of it's ductility. - 7024, regardless of tensile strength of the filler metal, is *not* for high strength applications because it does *not* penetrate the base metal very deeply. Without hearing more from Brent, I'll guarantee he is using 7024 Jet Rod for holding things in place until the _real_ weld (for strength) is done on the other side. If it were up to me, I'd say to follow his directions exactly, even if you have to special order the rods. I would not go off and weld up a boat with 7024 and 6013 unless you want it to break along those welds when you are out on the high seas. Just my opinion, but I can back it up with information from text books and highly experienced welders. Brian 945 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:47am Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods Brian, You have it right. Just as a point of interest. I did a repair on drawbars in a truck crane. They were made from T1 steel. I had to use 11018 welding rods, 110,000 psi. Gary H. Lucas 946 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 0:42pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods Brian and Gary, Thanks for your info on the rods. Are you saying that a 60,000 p.s.i. steel plate welded with a 6010 or 6011 rod is stronger than the same plate welded with a 6013 rod to the same thickness given that both welds are full thickness welds in fully prepared, chamfered and cleaned joints and that both weld metals have the same tensile strength? Would a 6011 weld be stronger than a 7024 weld of the same thickness and quality in the same metal? Because I could not get the 6011 rods and could get at least two different types of 7024 rods I wondered what qualities Brent was looking for so that I could follow his recommendations in message 937 as closely as possible. Following yours and others advice I have ordered a tin of 6010 which I now understand has similar qualities to 6011 and will pick them up today together with a packet of 7024 as Brent recommended. Thyssen make two sorts of 7024 rods and so I took their technical reps advice on which to choose and he recommended the one with 180% weld metal recovery, mainly I think because that is the one that the distributor keeps in stock. The other rod has 160% weld metal recovery. Which one would you recommend? Who makes the 7024 Jet Rod and do you know what the recovery is on that? The Thyssen catalogue, (I don't have any special favouritism towards Thyssen rods, in fact a year ago I hadn't even heard of them but we used them on the welding course so its probably a case of better the devil you know) shows five different types of 6013 rods, three of which include in their field of application statements shipbuilding, one of which, UNION 6013 states that it is suitable for shipbuilding steels corresponding to Approval Grade 2, (whatever that might be). I have been using their Phoenix Blue N and their Phoenix Blau 30 (both 6013) on the recommendation of their supplier. I have also used Oerlikon's Fincord M, a 6013. Their 6010 rod and for that matter 8010 rods are all listed as pipeline rods which of course confirms what you say Brian. You can usually only weld from one side of a pipe so you need good penetration to get a strong weld. On a ship or a tank you can mostly get to the other side and vee out any crud and weld to get a full penetration weld. In some cases a deep penetrating rod will tend to blow holes throught the plate and so a mild penetration rod or for that matter a quick freeze rod will make life easier. In the case of the origami boats where many of the plates have to be manipulated before the finish weld is done on the other side the first weld has to strong enough to take that but a deep penetrating rod will tend to blow holes in it. The backing of this first thick weld on the other side of the plate to the finish weld allows a deep penetrating rod to be used, which copes better with a less than perfect cleaning out of the vee. I think that is what you are saying Brian. Is the above a reasonable assessment? No doubt Brent will give his views in due course. My apologies if I ramble on a bit but writing things down and feed back from folks such as yourselves are very useful in getting things straight in ones mind. Regards, Ted Stone 947 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 1:04pm Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods Ted, Assuming you could get two perfect welds with two different rods you probably would get two very similar strength welds. In the real world that rarely happens so choosing a rod with particular properties will often give you a better weld. Years ago I had a young guy weld some angle iron shelf brackets to angle iron posts using 7024 welding downwards. The welds LOOKED very nice. I told him they were no good and he protested. I struck the bracket hard with the palm of my hand, and handed it to him! Earlier we were talking about mig welding. I cautioned everyone that they should not use 0.035" mig wire for welding anything but very thin metal, they should use 0.045" wire because of greater penetration. Every time I have said this I get tons of flack about it, especially from welders. However, I have been having mild steel parts hot dip galvanized for many years. EVERY time someone uses 0.035" mig wire to weld my parts I get weld failures from lack of penetration. Not every weld is bad, but when you weld thousands of parts that hang machinery over peoples heads how many bad welds are acceptable? We reduced the failure rate to near zero simply by insisting in writing on our prints that no parts would be accepted if welded using 0.035" welding wire. Welding with stick is no different, use the rod that will give you the best chance of producing a good weld. Gary H. Lucas 948 From: Brian Dixon Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 4:55pm Subject: RE: Re: Welding Rods Ed, You sound like you're right on track now. And yes, your first paragraph below is right. The 6010/6011 rod will produce a stronger plate. The weld material, the fill metal in the joint, will have a tensile strength of 60,000 psi either way, but the penetration in the base metal determines the bond strength to the plate itself. Deep penetration rods put more heat into the base metal too, so keep that in mind. BTW, I double checked. The 6010 is DC+ only (DC reverse, DCR, etc). 6011 is DC+ or AC, and that's why most shops and welding suppliers carry 6011. I don't think it matters who's 7024 you use. Around here, "Jet Rod" is the street name for the stuff, not a brand or product name. It's called Jet Rod because you can weld quickly and easily...just put the stick right against the metal and slide it along. The shield material (dry coating on the rod) is designed to control your arc length automatically and it melts away at the right rate, e.g. same as the deposition rate of the metal. 7024 produces a very pretty fast and easy weld, but just doesn't give a lot of strength due to it's shallower penetration. Lots of things are OK with a weaker joint though, including lots of things in boats. Just like "one nail doth not hold up a house", the strength of a structure is the sum of the components. In a monocoque (or nearly monocoque) structure like the origami boats, the skin of the vessel is of utmost importance, hence all the attention to making sure the welds on the skin are as good as they possibly can be. Great idea, these boats, but they do raise the requirements for sound welds on the skin a bit more. Large ships that are framed also use high-grade welds on the skin, but sometimes use shallower and faster-to-complete welds on internal framing if the engineer has designed the framing with that in mind, e.g. striking a best balance between inches of weld, time to manufacture, and amount of frames. Since a lot of internal framing can be nearly inaccessible, overdesigning and allowing 7024 as a weld material for a lot of the joints makes sense due to it's ease of use, otherwise it's going to by 6010/6011 and 7018 (typically.) I don't think the 7024 recovery rate is an issue for the finished product. I'm not even absolutely sure of what that means, but since the number is higher than 100%, it can't mean anything to do with 'recovering' or 'remaining amount' of the metal coming from the rod. I suspect that it is a measure of penetration, maybe? If so, then higher is better and I'd go for the 180%. They probably stock that one preferably because it is most popular with the customers. Oh, BTW, the 601x rods do blow through if you're not careful. They produce a hot arc. Unlike 7018, you can use a vertical whip motion when welding to help. 7018 can develop porosity problems if you lengthen the arc with a whip technique (apparently the shield isn't as good or the metal oxidizes more easily or something). The 601x rods are designed to produce a good weld even if whipped. I assume you know how to whip the rod while welding, right? Just in case though, whipping is a vertical S or C pattern to alternately lengthen and shorten the arc length (all in the *wrist*)...allows a very brief second for the filler metal to slightly harden in between deposits you might say...produces those little crescent ridges in the weld but most importantly, allows that slight cooling as you go and helps prevent blowing through. According to my notes, whipping is also called "oscillation", "chill stroke", "whip technique", and "ripple stroke." You can use whipping with any rod ending in "10" or "11", e.g. 601x or 701x. My instructor said the 601x rods have the deepest penetration of all rods. I suspect that's why they are used for one-sided pipe welding. Also, 601x rods are messy...use the anti-spatter spray so you can knock off the spatter more easily afterwards. Brian 949 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 6:25pm Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods Brian, Jet Rod is Lincoln Electrics trade mark for 7024. 950 From: Brian Dixon Date: Tue Jul 2, 2002 7:29pm Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods Ok..didn't know that. 951 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 11:27pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods Brian and Gary, Thanks for your info. With regard to the weld metal recovery of the Thyssen 7024 rods which is given as 160% or 180%; the Thyssen technical rep tells me that the rods have iron powder in the flux coating which in use combines with the rod itself to add an extra 60% or 80% of weld metal. Regards, Ted Stone 952 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wed Jul 3, 2002 11:37pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods Gary, Thanks for the info. I guess that is what might be expected with using a 7024 rod downhand. Doesn't the **2* means it is for flat / horizontal use only? Regards, Ted Stone 953 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Thu Jul 4, 2002 0:35am Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods Yes, that is true. But I so often hear "look how nice those welds are, there is nothing wrong with them!" If you didn't know that penetration makes a big difference in weld strength you'd say any of these rods are okay. Gary H. Lucas 954 From: richytill Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 0:27am Subject: Re: Welding Rods There is a 7014 "fill freeze" rod. By the number you will see this to be an all position rod with 70,000 lbs tensile. Can be used AC/DC. Penetration is reasonable, deposit rate is fair to good, vertical up is OK. It does nothing really well: it does most things fairly well. This rod can handle the outdoor environment better than- say-7018. I have burned boxes of the stuff with no problems. Used it on the inside of the chine because I had plenty of it on hand and it works. In shipbuilding we use 6011 (and equivilent filler metal) because it is less suceptible to electrolysis and can handle the outdoor environment. I have welded in Canada, the UK and the US and now teach welding as a part of a pre-trades metal program. Given appropriate plate set up, the most common structural defects in welding are not linked to the type of rod or filler material but to the appropriate temprature, arc charecteristics and speed of travel of the the weld pool. Essentially, welding with integrity is control of the weld pool. rt 955 From: Sanderse Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 3:19am Subject: RE: Re: Welding Rods Agreed. I built a 42 ft boat of 10 ga with no problems. 9i used 7018 in the heavy keel and stem arts, but 7014 on anything less than 3/16th. 956 From: Brian Dixon Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 6:52am Subject: RE: Re: Welding Rods Where do all of you get your information? The AWS Welding Handbook? Hope so...I've got one on the way, but for now have to rely on my textbook (Welding Skills 2nd Ed., R.T. Miller). In my text, 7014 is listed as "low penetration, high speed, fill-freeze". The text is not clear, but the description for 6013 differs slightly for penetration and says "shallow penetration." Not sure what the difference is between "low" and "shallow"...any of you know? My instructor hasn't mentioned 7014, but I'll ask him and pose a few questions about steel boat building. Hmmm...I really appreciate all the welding rod discussion... Brian 957 From: richytill Date: Fri Jul 5, 2002 8:18pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods The Lincoln Electric Company has published "New Lessons in ARC WELDING" since 1940. There was a 1999 Edition. Barry Hammel in Vancouver BC stocks them as would most Lincoln distributors. The larger "Proceedures Handbook" costs more and is fairly in depth. Typically 7024 is intended for plate over 3/16" and is described as shallow penetration--7014 is intended for material between sheet metal and heavier plate (ie. 10ga) and is designated as medium penetration. 6013 is the sheet metal rod. That said, you can increase the penetration of 7024 by cranking up the heat and changing the rod angle or; reduce the penetration of 6010/11 by reducing heat etc. Back to control of the weld pool. rt 958 From: atomhorizon Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 7:20pm Subject: Welding rods Hello folks. I'm new to the group here and new to groups period, hence I wasn't quite sure how to properly respond to the discussion regarding welding rods that I've been reading for the last 15 minutes. I've been working as a structural welder in a medium sized fab shop for the last few years and I have been interested in steel boat building for a few years also. I am currently enrolled in school in Washington state learning high pressure pipe and tube welding, lots and lots of 6010 and 7018 welding. In the shops where I have worked, of course, MIG was the predominant procedure, stick being used usually only in the field, but when we got prints for jobs that required stick welding, there was always a specification pertaining to what rods were to be used. It was always 7018. My understanding is that 70,000 lbs tensile strength is the standard for structural filler metal. 80,000 (8018 or 8010 rod) would make the weld metal stronger than the parent metal, and 60,000 (6010, 11, 12 or 13) would make the joint weaker than the parent metal. 6010 rod was like a big no-no on the job site, for structural application, as far as that goes. 7024 was also specifically mentioned in the prints NOT to be used for structural applications, I think (and I could be wrong here) because of embrittlement in the weld, and I don't know what would be the cause of that. So basically the industry standard is 7018 for anything structural, which would seem to include boat hulls. I've never used 6013 in a shop or even SEEN it in a shop, we used to call it 'farmer rod', sheet metal rod, but I can't see any reason to use it over 7018. I've also never seen 7014 used in a shop for structural welding, I think 7014 is just a 7024 rod with a thinner flux, hence the all position designation of the 7014. It's sure cool to see a discussion about all of this that is so active and interesting. I've got the weekend off and the beach is beckoning..... Adam 959 From: Brian Dixon Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 9:10pm Subject: RE: Welding rods More good info! Thanks! I'm saving this one as yet another set of hints and tidbits for those like me (new, but in class and learning). My only comment is on the statement about 7024 and embrittlement. Since it's a shallow penetrator, I doubt there is a lot of heat put into the base metal, the normal reason for loss of ductility and an increase in embrittlement. I suspect instead that the welds break at the weld-to-base metal interface from the shallow penetration. That's my guess anyway. Someone may have seen the break in that area and assumed it was the base metal that gave up the ghost and it was from embrittlement. Question: I'm just starting MIG welding. Can you get wire in all of these filler metal types? For example, does 601x and 7018 (etc) come in wire rolls too? I'm sure it must, but since the coating on the stick is an important part of the equation, it's got me wondering... Brian 960 From: lon wells Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 10:41pm Subject: Welding rods problem @ other end of the stinger Dear Cliff Claven The goal is to just get the boat in the water and have a safe and fun time. The fault in most defective welds is not the filler metal selected but the other end of the stinger. I know you all want to be welding engineers when you grow up. But this is not a nuclear submarine pressure hull that is built of high strength metal but a pleasure craft made with mild steel which has less tensile strength than any of the filler metals. Lon 961 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sat Jul 6, 2002 11:56pm Subject: rod question Well, I think the whole welding rod question is definitely worth the air-time for those of us who are fresh into the welding world, and of course this is what this forum is for. There are a few times, such as having my hull lifted by a crane, where I'd want to make sure that the lifting eye is properly welded with the right rod! A good point made by Lon, as well as someone in an earlier post, that the skill of the welder has as much or more to do with the quality of the weld than the type of rod alone. An interesting note about pressure vessel welding from a friend who has welded on submarines in the US in the past: they found slag inclusions in many of the weld seams they opened, among other types of problems. Kind of scary, but it certainly shows that even imperfect welds appear to hold out under many atomospheres of pressure. Somehow I doubt the crew would have been happy knowing what those seams looked like... As an on-surface vessel, I agree that in comparison, the sailboat hull doesn't have to put up with much pressure. But we all sleep better in our bunks knowing we've done those seams with the best rods for the job. The journey of figuring all this stuff out while we build our boats is part of the fun. Alex 962 From: atomhorizon Date: Sun Jul 7, 2002 8:33pm Subject: Brian's MIG question Brian - I'm not as up on my MIG filler wires as I should be, but here's what I can share with you. If you are MIG welding with what is known as 'hard wire', that is just your basic wire (usually with a thin copper coating) it is commonly 70,000 lb tensile strength wire. I don't think I've ever seen 60,000 tensile wire out there and in the shops I've worked in it was always 70k. A welding process that is quite common in structural prefab work is called FCAW-G, that is Flux Cored Arc Welding - Gas shielded, also called Dual Shield or Outershield wire. It's got flux inside of the wire and also uses a gas shielding like MIG. It typically penetrates alot deeper than hardwire, and therefore is innapropriate for sheetmetal work or any really thin stuff. I don't know how it would be for welding up a hull, I've wondered about it. It not only burns in deeper and hotter, but it seems to be ALOT more ductile than hardwire, which can be handy for tacking up, etc. Hardwire MIG doesn't burn in very deep (I apologize if I'm covering redundant material here) and doesn't seem to leave a very ductile weld, but it's apparently commonly used in hull construction - I would imagine that the lack of heat input is beneficial as far as warpage is concerned. The shielding gas used affects this also, CO2 doesn't burn in very hot (I've heard it called a 'cold' gas) and it can be very spattery - lots of cleanup afterward. A CO2/Argon mix with hardwire is alot nicer to weld with, burning in better and with much less spatter and cleanup. It's also more expensive. Again, sorry if this is too technical or geeky. I hope this info helps in your MIG research. Adam 963 From: richytill Date: Mon Jul 8, 2002 7:37pm Subject: Re: Brian's MIG question At the risk of belabouring this point, I do believe it is of value to the metal boat builder to review the reason for the use of 60XX series rods. Going back to the point about 7018 on structural steel. Yes it is superior on structural steel, pressure vessels etc.. The reason we use 60XX series rods on hull of marine vessels is not about strength--this is an attmpt to reduce the effect of electrolysis. The metal next to a 7018 weld will corode more rapidly. An exception to this practice is when we weld with 7018 on the bow of an ice breaker (some boom boats and sidewinders are welded with 7018 too). This is heave plate where we can afford to loose a fair amount of metal without compromise. The area of deficit in the HAZ is built up with new weld periodically to offset the effect of electolysis. Probably not something you would want to do on your own boat after it has been painted and foamed. So there is a valid reason for using 6011--6010. It is worth noting that ship repair/construction is often carried out in damp and less than ideal conditions for the use of low hydrogen (7018) electrodes. Lincoln has a give away pamphlet "Weldirectory" that will give you the MIG wire specs and one that will give you the rod specs. rt 964 From: atomhorizon Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 1:03am Subject: Re: Brian's MIG question Thank you for such an informed and concise post. Given the electrolysis consideration, what rod(s) would you suggest for general hull fabrication?? 6010/11?? What about MIG wires? I'd imagine the same problem would exist in terms of electrolysis with MIG wire, or is that assumption true?? Have you ever had problems with hydrogen embrittlement? Is there any way that you know of to offset that problem or compensate for it without needing to use a 7018 rod, or is it not really so much of a problem? Thank you Adam 965 From: The Bumby's Date: Tue Jul 9, 2002 7:06am Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods I don't know why I'm receiving e-mail on the welding rods but I'm finding it interesting! There is a book called "Superior Alloys for Maintenance and Repair" by MG INDUSTRIES. I bought mine at a local welding shop and have found it very helpful in making decisions about what rod to use and what settings for each rod. There is also a phone number; 800-558-8524, which can be used to receive expert help for most any welding concern. I hope this helps and thanks for the tips from the different people. Ernest 966 From: richytill Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 0:55am Subject: Re: Welding Rods Ted, it seems you may be welding in the UK. If this is the case and you wish to access 6010 0r 6011 electrodes they were avilable and probably still are. Airco may market them through Murex. I worked on gas pipelines in the UK for a while and we used Lincoln Fleetweld 5, Fleetweld 35 (6011) along with the more conventional downhill pipe rods. I imagine 5P+ (improved 6010) is available too. The pipeliners often dump 44lbs cans of these rods if the containers are dented, half used or suspected of being slightly damp. ESAB markets in the UK and do produce 60XX series rods. ESAB (Sweden) reportedly welded the fisrt all welded steel boat back in the day when they created the first practical coated electrodes. Now I digress. All the best finding the right rod. rt 967 From: brentswain38 Date: Thu Jul 11, 2002 4:52am Subject: Re: Welding Rods Ted It's not uncommon for the chine welds to crack as you are pulling the hull together as they hinge a long way and change their angle greatly as the hull is pulled together. The cure is to climb outside the hull as soon as the chine begins to come off the ground and put 4 inch long welds with 6011 on the outside the chine. That way any change in angle pulls away from the welds rather than toward them. There is far less metal in the weld than in the plate with welding on the inside only and any welding rod will tend to crack in this situation. This has no bearing on the adequacy of the weld strength in the finished boat. The first 36 footer I built in 1981 , welded entirely with 6011 and 7024 survived 16 days pounding on a lee shore in 12 foot surf on the west coast of mexico with no major structural dammage , and was pulled off through 12 foot surf with no dammage. Another 36 survived pounding accross 300 yards of Fijian coral reef and was pulled off by a large tug with no major dammage, then it survived a collision with a freighter in Gibralter without serious structural dammage, no welds failed . It was welded entirely with 6011 and 7024. Before we begin to worry about weld strength we should consider how many boats have done circumnavigations while held together by copper fastenings in red cedar every 6 inches. The reason I use 7024 is because it's a lot faster and easier to use than 7018 and it's a lot easier to screw up a weld with 7018. the slag on 7018 is a lot harder to remove,7024 is dwefinitly a flat welding rod only While doing structural steel work they insisted I use 7018, This was before 7018n was available in ac. They gave me cold rods and an ac machine to use. When I cut the welds open they were full of bubbles and looked like an aero bar inside, but because the right number was on the rod they were happy. When I weld the lugs on for pulling the hull together I usually let the owner weld them on with 7024. It's often the first time the've ever tried welding. When they are no longer needed I give them a sledge hammer and let them try to break the welds . When they are totally exhausted and the lugs have finally broken , about a half an inch up above the weld,after being bent back and forth many times I ask them if they are still worried about weld strength. Somehow they never are. 6011 is ac rod, 6010 is dc. They are the only rod which will blow the slag right out of the puddle which is why until recently they are the only rods that lloyds would approve of.The are extremely forgivving with regard to conditions and the shape they are in.They penetrate far better than the alternatives. As any seams should be welded on one side, then all slag ground out from the otherside before the outside weld is put on, penetration is not that great an issue. If you weld a piece of 1/8th inch plate to a 3/16th inch plate with a single pass of 1/8th inch 7024 , then try to break it with a hammer, the 1/8th will break well away from the weld, as there is more metal in the weld than in the 1/8th inch plate. I prefer to have the transevese seam overlap, pull it together until the overlap is parrallel, then tack the centreline end of the overlap. Then I cut off the overlap, grind a bevel on one side, match both sides up tack them together, then cut the overlap tack and match it up. Before fully welding the transeverse seam, it's a good idea to tack large straight edges of scrap plate accross the seam every foot or so ,to keep it straight while doing the full weld as well as welding on the short pieces of angle to make the stringers continuous. After the seam has been fully welded, these pieces can be broken off and the welds under them finished. Brent Swain 968 From: brentswain38 Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 1:05am Subject: Re: Welding Rods brentswain38@y... will be my new e-mail address as hotmail limits you to 1/3rd the capacity of yahoo, and limits you to one month. I'm not sure if yahoo gives you more time, but the extra capacity will sure help when I'm away cruising for months without computer access. Brent Swain 969 From: Brian Dixon Date: Fri Jul 12, 2002 5:34am Subject: RE: Re: Welding Rods I had mentioned that I'd ask my very-experienced welding instructor his opinion on the different rods. For boats, I don't think he's got any experience, but here's what he had to say: - 6011/6010 versus 6013: Not a helluva lot of difference. 6013 is listed as having less penetration, but then he showed me a 3/8" plate with stringer welds on it...6010, 6011, and 6013 side by side. The plate had been cut 90-degrees to the welds and polished so you could compare penetration. The 6013 penetrated only a little less...you could see the difference, but it wasn't a lot. 7024 was less than all of them, but was the prettiest...easy for new guys to weld with as Brent pointed out because the shield coating is designed to disintegrate at the right rate for maintaining the arc length...in a T-joint for example, you just poke the rod right into the groove so it touches both sides of the joint and then drag the stick along...voila! Perfect weld...but it'll break easier than deeper penetrating welds...depends on surface preparation, weld speed, and current setting. - 601x versus 7018 for corrosion resistance. He claimed that he's heard rumors of that but has *never* seen anything in writing from anybody or any organization, let alone results of actual tests. Mind you, that doesn't mean 601x isn't less likely to corrode, it just means my instructor didn't know. I still think Brent's suggestions make the best sense, and as he stated, the boat's history proves this out. Brian 970 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:40pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods Brent and everyone, Many thanks for your info. Sorry I didn't reply sooner but we've been away sailing, in a GRP boat. I've now got the rods OK. Many years ago when I worked on a farm we used three types of rod: 6013 rods I think, cutting/gouging rods, and hard surfacing rods. We repaired and modified farm and earthmoving plant and made excavator buckets that held together without problems. Regards, Ted 971 From: Brian Dixon Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 0:17am Subject: Re: Re: Welding Rods I must admit that after looking at the polished cross-sections of 6010/6011/6013 rods, that I came away feeling much more positive about 6013. I mean, left to my own evils, I'd still go with the 6010/6011 because the are slightly better, BUT I'd also bet money on (someone else's) boat that the 6013 would show no significant difference in the field. MILD steel boats... Brian 972 From: rbyzitter2001 Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:00pm Subject: Lincoln welder. Hello, I have a Lincoln, "IdealArc" 250amp, ac/dc Industrial welder here with 50' of both ground and hot cable. Vancouver area, $250.00. Cheers. 973 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Jul 16, 2002 10:58pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods 6013 works just fine for boatbuilding. Provided you open up the seams by beveling the edges for full penetration you'll have no problems with 6013. Brent Swain 974 From: paull01 Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:19pm Subject: 31 vs 36 Brent, I was wondering how you would compare the 31 vs the 36, having owned and lived aboard both of them. You said that the toughest choice you had to make was whether to go with 1 or two keels. Was the choice of the 31 vs the 36 a tough choice? I'm debating the two sizes. I would be a first time builder and cruiser - planning on going out for a long time. At this point I'm on my own, but hope to perhaps find mate (matess...) along the way. I'm planning to do a lot of off the beaten path shoal/river exploration. Is the 31 just a whole lot easier to single hand? Paul Seattle, WA 975 From: james floyd Date: Fri Jul 26, 2002 11:52pm Subject: weight Brent, How much steel (in pounds) does it take to build your 40 footer? Is the hull 1/4" or 3/16"? I am delighted with your book. When will you be leaving on another cruise? Can plans be purchased when you are elsewhere? Thanks, James Floyd 976 From: Phillip Allen Date: Sat Jul 27, 2002 0:08am Subject: Re: 31 vs 36 http://www.cruisingworld.com/forums/genlmesg/index.pl Check the above link to Cruising World bullitin board. I've been reading for quite a while and have gotten some good info from these people. Feel free to jump in with questions...there may be an occasional snob...ignore them :) Phillip Allen (NW Arkansas) 980 From: misterinbetween2002 Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:32am Subject: A safe, secure, inexpensive site to build your boat Anyone contemplating building a boat but lacking their own site. I offer outdoor space with ample electricity on a farm in the mid vancouver island area. Currently three Swain 36 footers are on site in varying stages of completion. Rent is $100 per month for the duration of your project. Living accomodation is occasionally available on the farm and also exists in the surrounding area. For info email me at kvanwest@s... 981 From: ajcalla Date: Mon Jul 29, 2002 1:34pm Subject: Re: Welding Rods I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been addressed but here it is. How AWS classifies steel welding electrode. The "E" indicates Electrode used in arc welding. The first two (sometimes three)digits indicate tensile strength in thousands of psi. The third ( sometimes the forth) indicates in which position or positions the electrode can be used. 0 = means this classification is not used 1 = All positions 2 = Flat and Horiz 3 = Flat only The forth (sometimes Fifth) indicates the type of flux coating and the recommended power supply 0 = means the type of flux and power supply is determined by the third digit 1 = cellulose potassium / AC, DCRP, DCSP 2 = Titania sodium / AC, DCSP 3 = Titania potassium / AC, DCSP, DCRP 4 = Iron powder titania / AC, DCSP, DCRP 5 = Low hydrogen sodium / DCRP 6 = Low hydrogen potassium / AC, DCRP 7 = Iron powder iron oxide / AC, DCSP 8 = Iron powder low hydrogen / AC, DCRP, DCSP This does not apply to stainless steel electrode. Low hydrogen rods were developed to prevent the cracking which occured when welding high strength alloy steels. All Carbon Steel plate these days is an alloy. They'r alloyed for a number of diferent characteristics not the least of which is higher strength. When stick welding I use 6010 (pipe rod) to keyhole weld low pressure non-critical systems. I use 6011 when I need to weld through rust, heavy scale, and paint (garbage welding), I use mil-spec 7018 on almost everything else. No other rod I've used does as nice a job in all positions on carbon steel than 7018. Except don't use ESAB 3/32" atomarc 7018 rod. I've found many lots of this rod have an uneven flux coating which can be cause some horrible welds. Just some stuff to think about. John 982 From: oliviadrabbe Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 5:27am Subject: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo Hi, I've been lurking on this list for several months and am firmly convinced that a Swain is going to be our future boat. Perhaps it'll be sooner rather than later. This months Boat Journal shows a Swain 30 in Nanaimo. Does anyone know this boat? She would be a great size for us and seems reasonably well equipped but I don't want to get too excited about her as I'm not the most experienced metal boat person in the world. I'm not sure of the etiquette of asking the lists opinion on a specific boat but I'm going to ask anyway and expect to be corrected if I'm out of line. Please feel free to reply off list if anyone has any comments. Thanks! Mary starboard62@t... 983 From: Alan Smith Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 7:24pm Subject: Re: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo Mary, That would probably be mine. Please feel free ask anything you like. Al 984 From: Stephen Wandling Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 7:45pm Subject: Re: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo Is this Brent's original Simplicity? 985 From: Doug Barnard Date: Fri Aug 2, 2002 9:06pm Subject: Buehler designs Well, doesn't have too much to do with Swain frameless construction, but some nuggets can still be gleamed from a perusal... I guess that George Buehler was the one to blame for my interest in building a cruising boat. Reading his "Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding" got me all fired up, and here I am today, still ready to go. Lots of good info, especially as to interior or sub-assemblies can be had from his books. He's got a new website: http://dieselducks.com/index.html It discusses his trawler yachts, and there's some great pics of details from Seahorse Marine, a shipyard in China that's building Diesel Ducks on order. Too bad that Buehler hasn't adapted his plans to a high-speed building/frameless approach, and that his boats all look destined for cold climates. Still, I respect his iconoclastic approach to boat design! Just ain't for me. Doug Barnard currently in custom Skipjack 20 stern drive soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" near Ventura, CA http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream 986 From: Alan Smith Date: Mon Aug 5, 2002 11:07pm Subject: Re: Swain 30 (31?) in Nanaimo Steve, Yes it is Brent's original Simplicity. Al 987 From: kupris1948 Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 11:13am Subject: wiley type, swing in portholes, does anybody have experience with them for anybody wondering what they are, the pane of glass can be lifted out, wedged closed, wedged open at 25 degrees pivoting at the bottom to allow air in but rain to drain out, quick change for screens or sun shade,easey to make, drop in storm shutters possible. They seem perfect for a metal boat so there must be something wrong with them. 988 From: Doug Barnard Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 5:40pm Subject: RE: wiley type, swing in portholes, does anybody have experience with them I've seen a website for a similar item: http://www.trikini.com/BAPORT/Baport.htm It seems to me that I'd want to see a great implementation of these before committing. As I plan to take my boat to the tropics, I keep going 'round and 'round about opening ports off the centerline. Whether to go for ventilation or offshore security. As the cost of new Lewmar ports roughly equals the cost of steel for the boat (!), this is a fairly big deal. Maybe bolt-on-the-outside Lexan storm shutters? Doug Barnard currently in custom Skipjack 20 stern drive soon-to-be beginning construction Origami Steel Swain 40 "Lotus Dream" near Ventura, CA http://www.virtualacreage.com/LotusDream 989 From: John Olson Date: Tue Aug 6, 2002 8:26pm Subject: Re: wiley type, swing in portholes, does anybody have experience with them Where there's big green waves smashing over the top of my boat, the last thing I want is removable windows. Keep it watertight! If you want ventilation, open a hatch (if you dare!) Cheers John Eclectus (Swain 31) 990 From: Gord Schnell Date: Wed Aug 7, 2002 7:23am Subject: Re: wiley type, swing in portholes,does anybody have experience with them A friend of mine, we will call him Paul, went to a good deal of effort to manufacture and install these on his Brent 36. He is now in Fiji and has removed them all after making many attempts to seal them. Personally, I choose not to open anything on the outside of my boat and only on top near the centerline. Add dorades with sealable closings. Gord 991 From: winslow59 Date: Thu Aug 8, 2002 7:24pm Subject: MBS Fest Any origamiboat-folk gonna be at the Metal Boat Society Annual Festival this weekend? 9-11 August, 2002 in Vancouver (not B.C.) Washington (not D.C.) more info here: http://www.metalboatsociety.com/ -Markus 992 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Mon Aug 12, 2002 11:04pm Subject: Anchor Well In the photos some boats have anchor wells and some don't seem to. I would appreciate views as to the pros and cons of an anchor well especially with regard to boat strength, anchor handling and ventilation. Regards, Ted 993 From: brentswain38 Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 0:45am Subject: Re: MBS Fest If it were still at Oak Harbour , close to home , and where I can camp on the lawn, I wouldn't miss it. Vancouver Wa is a long way and it looks like an expensive hotel is the only camping option. I won't make it, but there will probably be some origami folks from Washington there. Brent Swain brentswain38@y... 994 From: brentswain38 Date: Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:01am Subject: Re: Anchor Well My first boat didn't have an anchor well. After dragging anchor in Whangarei NZ I sailed to the Bay of Islands with an offshore wind. I'd forgot to store the anchor rode properly, which was no problem with an offshore wind. When I turned the corner to beat into the Bay of Islands, 200 ft of anchor rode went over the side. I learned the hard way , the disadvantages of having absolutely nowhere to put anything down foreward of the cockpit, where it won't jump overboard. Anchor well is a bit of a misnomer. Actually I use it for spare anchor rode, kellets, shore lines , pliers, etc. It sure beats having to go all the way aft whenever you need something in a hurry . Structuraly, I put a 2 inch sch 40 pipe between the doubler plate for the mooring bit and the bottom of the bow roller , which would take a phenomenal amount of compression in a collision. The lid and cover are hinged and bolted to this compression post. The whole anchor well is a huge dorade box for ventilation. Lately we have been putting a cowl vent on the lid and putting the vent pipe in the back of the anchorwell off to the lid side of the well. These can be conected by the plastic corrugated pipe common in building supply stores. This way air goes in, but water leaks into the well and overboard. A bailer type stainless scoop facing aft stops water from forcing it's way into the well when you punch into a head sea.. Welding a couple of pieces of 3/8th ich rod accross the vent in the aft end of the well with a stainless 1/2 inch nut welded in the middle lets you make a spin shut plate with a piece of stainless ready rod with a t handle welded on. Brent Swain 995 From: alex_christie Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 9:51pm Subject: new photos added Dear Group, I've added some photos of Brent and my trip to Campbell River, where we went to see 3 different Swain 36 footers all at the same dock. The black hulled boat (can't remember the name) is quite old and has held up very well. The Dove II is Winston Bushnell's(captain of the Dove III, a 26 footer which traversed the Northwest Passage in the Arctic Ocean)old 36, the original steel Dove, and he now has another one recently launched. Some close-up photos were taken of the rotted wooden boom- crutch to show how mating wood to steel eventually results in the wood rotting -- but each to his own, right? One can reason that the wood block lasted a long time, and is easily replaced. Timo's nice white boat was one of the finest examples of a Swain 36 I've ever seen. Have a look at some of the hand-made metalwork such as his snatchblocks and nice taffrail seats ---inspiring! All photos can be found in the file, "Campbell River Field Trip". Alex (moderator) 996 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:21pm Subject: Ballast Brent, In the drawings for a 36', in drg. 1, it states "KEEL 5700 BALLAST 4500 lbs". What does KEEL 5700 mean? What amount of ballast do you recommend for a twin keel boat and where do you recommend it is placed? Regards, Ted 997 From: Betty Forster Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:41pm Subject: Re: new photos added Hi there: I'm not much of a computer expert and I can't seem to find a file called campbell river field trip. I don't know if it's not there or I'm just not looking in the right places. Any suggestions Martin (prairiemaid)... 998 From: alex_christie Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:16pm Subject: photo locations Hi Betty, The photos I have recently uploaded are located by clicking on the word "Photos" on the menu bar at the left hand side of your screen. You may have clicked on "Files" by mistake (this used to be the only place for photos until Yahoo created a dedicated photo section, so there are also a lot of photos in there from the early days of the group site). I may have lent some confusion to the situation by using the word "file", I don't know. Once you are in the Photos section, the Campbell River Fieldtrip album is located in the last column of the second row. Make sure you are signed in as the words in the menu, though visible (as black letters), won't be clickable (blue letters). If you or anyone has further problems, just let me know and I'll check it out. Alex Christie (moderator) 999 From: meademd@a... Date: Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: photos Alex, Thanks for the new photos. I have been studying them since you posted them. I see there is room for diversity in the construction of this style boat. What with the Junk rig, the different style pilot houses, hand rails, and other details. BTW, I was so happy to find this site. I was in Ladysmith and Nanaimo visiting this summer with Brent and others and admiring and studying the boat. One of the owners there put me on to this site. I am in Florida, struggling along and having a great time putting this thing together. If any one else is in Florida I would like to get together with them. Bob Meade Leesburg FL 1000 From: de_anander Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 6:40am Subject: newbie inquiry Can anyone tell me more about the "Shaler Junk" in the pictures section? I'm very interested in junk schooners. Would like to get in touch with the owner, if that would be OK, and ask a bunch of questions. thanks de 1001 From: Stephen Wandling Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 6:44am Subject: Re: newbie inquiry It's owned by Evan Shaler of Nanaimo. He designed it as a replica of Allan Farrell's "China Cloud". His email address is: evanmoonjunk@y... 1002 From: Newbarndesign Date: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:14pm Subject: Book order Hi: This message is for Brent, I sent him an e-mail but wasn't sure if he got it. I sent a check and an order for a book several weeks ago but have'nt heard anything, just wondering if he got the order? Thanks Phil Sacchitella 1003 From: capt_john2002 Date: Thu Aug 22, 2002 7:32pm Subject: Drawings Could someone provide a drawing or something to show the layout or how the cabins are set up, tankage, engine arrangment, sail plan, etc. etc. et 1004 From: prairiemaidca Date: Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:42pm Subject: skeg cooling: Hi everyone. I need some advise out here on the prairie. I'm ready to install my skeg and I would like to know if the inlet and outlets for the coolant can just be nipples through the hull into the skeg or does the coolant returning to the engine need to have a pipe to the bottom of the skeg??? Thanks Martin.... 1005 From: Gord Schnell Date: Sat Aug 24, 2002 5:31am Subject: Re: skeg cooling: Return pipe needs to go to the bottom of the skeg as coolant will stratify by temperature. Gord 1006 From: capt_john2002 Date: Sat Aug 24, 2002 7:49pm Subject: Skeg Kooling Hot water molecules being less dense would tend to remain near the top of the skeg so, to allow a more complete exchange of heat you should have your pickup near the bottom... be co 1007 From: tom spanos Date: Sun Aug 25, 2002 11:05pm Subject: for sale I have a friend who is moving to California. He has the 36 footer, cutter rigged, twin keels. I told him to check out this site but he's busy and doesn't do what I tell him. The boat is here in Bellingham but he is now talking about taking it down to Gove's Cove for consignment on Lake Union in Seattle. Interested parties, questions? I'll answer or relay the message. Tom Spanos 1008 From: robin roberts Date: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:02am Subject: Re: for sale robin roberts here, what's the price tag? i am close to bellingham , thanks 1009 From: tom spanos Date: Mon Aug 26, 2002 5:15pm Subject: 36 footer Robin I'm guessing 20K. If you get a chance to do a drive-by: she's light gray, anchored east of the Alaska State Ferry Terminal at the south end of Bellingham Bay. TOM 1010 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Aug 27, 2002 0:49am Subject: Re: Book order The book is in the mail. Thanks. Brent 1011 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Aug 27, 2002 0:53am Subject: Re: Ballast The 5700 is the total weight of the keel. There is roughly 1,000 lbs of steel and the remaining 4500 lbs is lead. Brent Swain 1012 From: brentswain38 Date: Tue Aug 27, 2002 0:59am Subject: Re: Book order On my drawings for the twin keeler , for the leading edges of the keel I distinctly specify solid shaft. Some people have been substituting pipe for the solid shaft. No matter how much lead you pour behind a pipe, it will flatten out the first time you hit a rock. One builder is putting ease of construction ahead of seaworthiness. If you hire someone to build one of my twin keelers, insist that he follow the plans. If he refuses, fire him and hire someone who will follow the plans. Brent Swain 1013 From: kwing175 Date: Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:28pm Subject: Re: 36 footer for sale Tom, Any chance that particulars are available? Information such as, vessel age, engine make&model, what kind of insulation, photos that could be posted to the web,nav equipment, etc. Actually any broker's web page can indicate the type of information to be provided. Publishing this information will help your friend sell his boat. I use a check list when looking at boats. I could e-mail a copy to be filled out. It is more extensive than necessary for a casual look but, the pertinent facts could be listed. Let me know. Regards, Keith 1014 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:36pm Subject: Re: Ballast Thanks Brent, Is it the same for amount of lead or more for a bilge keeler and where is it put? For instance are the keels filled up level or is more weight needed towards the front of the keels as is necessary on some boats? Regards, Ted 1015 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:58pm Subject: Re: Drawings Capt_john2002, In most cases boat designers, although they might make suggestions and draw cabin plans leave these details to the builders as the owner's requirements of, say number of crew/berths, distance to be travelled and therefore tankage, type and power rating of the engine and even sail layout vary so. I have study plans, full plans and catalogues from Bruce Roberts, Tom Colvin, Jay Benford, George Beuhler and that is more or less the same for everyone. Regards, Ted 1016 From: capt_john2002 Date: Wed Aug 28, 2002 6:51pm Subject: Book? I gave your address to my local nautical book store and am eagerly awaiting delivery of your book, maybe Toronto will like your design as I d 1017 From: capt_john2002 Date: Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:52am Subject: opening portlights or starboard lights for the other side of the boat. An aquaintance of mine, actually a few, have made their own portlights out of wood and used little plastic sign letters to add their boat name to the frame and then took the pieces to a foundry and had more than enough made up. They used "alluma-bronze" a mix of aluminium & Bronze, said to be real tough and won't tarnish. Basicaly you'll pay for the cost of the metal used then it's off to the machine shop to trim off the exess metal, cut groooves for seals, space for glass (glass in my old tug's portlights were 3/4" to an inch thick) but GLASS, remember...plastic will scratch easier than glass but it is easier to work with. For those really nasty days, you may want to add some deadlights, (those metal covers over the the glass that don't break) just added security. 1018 From: brentswain38 Date: Thu Aug 29, 2002 8:10pm Subject: Re: Ballast The amount of ballast is the same total whether for a single or twin keel, 4500 lbs, half in each keel for the twin keeler . So far all the lead has been put level with the waterline, and the boats float level. However, there is a lot more storage space aft than foreward, so it doesn't hurt to favour putting the lead a bit deeper further foreward to offset the eventual extra weight in the stern. Brent Swain 1019 repeat post 1020 From: brentswain38 Date: Thu Aug 29, 2002 8:21pm Subject: Re: Drawings I could get Alex to scan in a basic drawing of the tankage and a simple interior layout when I see him next. Basically for the single keeler the area above the ballast, up to the floor is water tankage and the space in the keel behind the ballast is fuel tankage. For the twin keeler, the space between the keels is water and fuel tankage is built in below the wheelhouse floor. All tanks are built in as that provides the easiest access to the hull, being the bottom of the tank and the least weight and the easiest construction. Brent Swain 1021 From: lbanerd Date: Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:31am Subject: Junk rig? Would the 26-foot Swain hull be compatible with a single-masted junk rig? If so, where might the mast be positioned? What sail area would be suitable? If not, why not? Too top-heavy? Not enough to sail to drive the hull at reasonable speed? Re-positioning the mast would ruin the sailing balance? 1022 From: Stephen Wandling Date: Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:26pm Subject: Re: Junk rig? lbanerd, I suspect that you will find, as I have, that Brent does not have a high regard for the junk rig, which is what I am putting on my steel "non-Swain" boat. There is lots of literature out there on putting a junk rig on just about anything. I would also suggest the junkrig group here on yahoogroups. There is lots of info in their file section. Stephen 1023 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Sat Aug 31, 2002 11:47pm Subject: Anchor winch bearings What is the favourite bearing material for the drum and handle? Regards, Ted 1024 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Sep 3, 2002 10:07am Subject: Re: Junk rig? lbanerd, Robin Blain designs junk rigs for all types of boats and should be able to help you. He has even been to Hong Kong to rig a junk yacht. I do not know his email but here is his address. Hon Sec Junk Rig and Advanced Cruising Rig Association 373 Hunts Pond Road Titchfield Common FAREHAM Hampshire PO14 4PB UK Tel: + 44 (0)1329 842 613 Fax: + 44 (0)1329 315 232 Regards, Ted 1025 From: brentswain38 Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 0:33am Subject: Re: Anchor winch bearings Stainless type 316 makes the best winch drum and handle.I use plastic hose barbs for the bearings . Brent Swain 1026 From: Joe Earsley Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 1:47am Subject: RE: Re: Anchor winch bearings Does anyone have any experience with "aluminized steel"? I am seeing it here on industrial engine silencers and it has performed very well in corrosive places like Saint Lawerence Island in the Bering Sea. I have talked to EBI in British Columbia about this material. They built some enclosures for a client with the material and a year later found scrap in the "boneyard" looking bright as new, even between sheets. EBI says there wasn't a big price difference and welding proceedures did not change. 1027 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 9:00am Subject: Re: Anchor winch bearings Thanks Brent, Are they PVC hose barbs? Regards, Ted 1028 From: Bert Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 5:32am Subject: Hose barbs? Ummmmm, what are pvc or plastic hose guards....somehow I'm not sure of what you folks mean.... Bert Eggers in Saginaw, Michigan 1029 From: Stephen Wandling Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 5:42pm Subject: Re: Hose barbs? They are pvc devices that slip inside pvc pipe to allow connecting sections of pipe together or allow the connection of threaded fittings. 1030 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Re: Hose barbs? I suggest using ones made from nylon or polypropylene, much better bearing materials than PVC. See www.McMasterCarr.com to see what is available. Gary H. Lucas 1031 From: John Jones Date: Wed Sep 4, 2002 7:43pm Subject: Re: Re: Anchor winch bearings Well Joe, I've heard of aluma/bronze and aluma/nickle/bronze and they're tough alloys and they resist tarnishing even in salt water, Your local foundry should be able to help. John Jones 1032 From: dickpilz Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 1:10am Subject: Aluminized Steel (was Re: Anchor winch bearings) Hi, Joe, Unless you are building another engine silencer or some other device that gets and stays hot on a periodic and frequent basis, don't use it in a marine environment. (I used to make engine silencers.) There is a special reaction that takes place at about 1500 degrees F where an iron aluminide alloy is formed. This is the actual corrosion resistant layer. This is great for cheap engine silencers. It is also used on very cheap burners for propane BBQ grills - these rust out after one year. Unfortunately, the aluminization burns away at every weld, so crimping is the best seam method for corrosion resistance. Not watertight. Stainless steel makes better silencers (and BBQ burners), but the critical part is both that SS and aluminized steel must always be kept exposed to the air and dried out frequently. Dick Pilz 1033 From: yachtayata Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 1:53am Subject: 47' ft steel Hutton cutter for sale!!! 1034 From: robert44654 Date: Thu Sep 5, 2002 11:43pm Subject: masts Could schedule 40 PVC pipe be used as a mast? It comes in varying sizes, 4" + comes in 20 foot lengths at the local lumber yard 1035 From: r_biese Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 6:13pm Subject: a crazy question Hi all as you may know boat building is much a love affair ok a modern hull, a twin keel great about 43 or 45 foot fine but my wife likes and we have sailed them since 20 years Gaff ketch'es, but I told here that building in wood even wood epoxy will be very expensive and take the rest of the live, beside dust and smell...... An Origami Boat with a real big deckshouse, let's say like a fisherboat from a gone aera..... and Gaff of course crazy ... could it be done ???? Ronald 1036 From: Gord Schnell Date: Fri Sep 6, 2002 6:43pm Subject: Desalinator Recently there was a brief discussion about building your own desalinator unit. Does anyone know who the "designer" of this was? Sure would like to talk to them. Gord 1037 From: brentswain38 Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:10am Subject: Re: Desalinator Wolf Berg came up with the unit. He's probably gone back to new Zealand by now . Brent Swain 1038 From: brentswain38 Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:11am Subject: Re: a crazy question It would be no problem. Brent Swain 1039 From: brentswain38 Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:12am Subject: Re: masts No way. Brent Swain 1040 From: brentswain38 Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 0:22am Subject: Re: Anchor winch bearings When you talk about aluminized steel you are talking about flame spraying, a form of spray galvanizing with molten metal. It's an excellent way of protecting steel. I had several anchors done with aluminium -zinc and they kept well for about ten years, not as good as hot galvanozing, but the next best thing. I flame sprayed a hull once and friends who have were very happy with the results,many years and thousands of miles later. . It's cheaper to buy your own equipment and do it yourself, especially if you can get the equipment used, or share the cost with several other builders. The equipment does occasionaly show up in surplus stores or scrapyards. Brent Swain 1041 From: Brian Dixon Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 2:31am Subject: RE: Re: masts I'm not much into design of masts, but I see this topic come up over and over in every forum that covers boats...I guess all those pipes stacked up at Home Depot look mighty tempting and cheap, eh? In any case, the answer is always no. It's brittle and fails catastrophically when it fails, and it's way to flexible, even the larger diameters. Brian 1042 From: Alan Smith Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 3:23am Subject: RE: Re: masts If you really don't want a proven steel, wood or aluminum mast, then check out this web page for info on building one with foam/epoxy: http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/3387/mast.htm Al 1043 From: capt_john2002 Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 5:38am Subject: metal in the mix When you go to your local foundry ask if they will mix alloys such as aluminum/bronze/nickle/gold, no not gold, but it's not sprayed on as an after thought to make a different metal composition. It's in the mix while still molten. 1044 From: John Jones Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 4:47am Subject: Re: masts And for those really hot days you could have a great big noodle John Jones 1045 From: John Jones Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 4:54am Subject: Re: Desalinator Check the Latts N Atts web site for plans for a still. Along with recipies for rum scotch gin and whiskey you can also distill water too. John Jones 1046 From: John Jones Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 5:10am Subject: Re: Re: Anchor winch bearings Okay, Aluma/bronze or aluma/nickle/bronze are actually a mix of molten metals poured into a mould in order make somethinglike a winch or windlass but not something sprayed on as an after thought. John Jones <> 1047 repeated post 1048 From: Stephen Wandling Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 4:42pm Subject: Aluminized steel John, You may be right, but that's not what Brent was commenting on. The original question was regarding "aluminized steel". You may educate yourself on this material at http://www.big-o.com/catalog/construc/drainage/dp_alu1.pdf and numerous other sites. Stephen 1049 From: John Jones Date: Sat Sep 7, 2002 6:53pm Subject: Re: Aluminized steel Thanks but I am familiar with the concept but when they're moulded together they can't seperate or flake apart John Jones 1050 From: John Jones Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 6:05pm Subject: Re: Re: masts Yup.....Great weight savings and it does'nt become a lightning rod either. I've even seen propellor shafts for large ships use this technology, and when one guy hoists a 20' section on his shoulder it makes quite a statement. You could even insert small plastic tubes into the foam to guide halyards inside the mast. Good link, Thanks John 1051 From: tom spanos Date: Sun Sep 8, 2002 10:50pm Subject: Re: 36 footer Gentlemen, the boat is sold. 1052 From: Alan Smith Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 4:43am Subject: Re: Re: masts Perhaps that guy is onto something, as long as you have an source of inexpensive epoxy. The technique is also used on homebuilt aircraft where it is known as composite construction. Burt Rutan, who is famous for building the Voyager round-the-world non-stop airplane, has many homebuilt aircraft designs using foam/epoxy construction. If it worked on Voyager's long wings, it might be okay for a mast. Personally I don't care for internal halyards. Instead, fill those internal tubes with crumbled aluminum foil and you will have a fantastic built-in radar reflector. I imagine the cost would be a lot more than a wood mast but still less than a new aluminum extrusion. But I bet used aluminum masts are relatively plentiful as well as relatively cheap. Al 1053 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 7:07am Subject: Re: Re: masts You can find an old steel or ferro yatch that has rusted out ( ppl forget to pay as much attention as they do to the outside on the inside on steel boats) around for a reasonable price with winches, masts and all the other gear on them I purchased one for $2000 aud. Have since heard of one selling for $800aud. they seem to be more plentiful in the tropics , is where the damage really sets in with the humidty and all I have also seen a few boats built with a t.v station type mast, three 1.5 inch pipe that seemed to work o.k one was a 55 ft roberts ketch rig with gal cable to keep the cost down. Regards Graeme 1054 From: robert44654 Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 11:17pm Subject: "monocat" I have been making boat models, some a bit different, and I think an improvement. One of the limitations of smaller boats is limited waterline length. I have been experimenting adding narrow hulls to the back of monohulls in the shape of a "V" with the open part pointing aft. The draft of the aft portions of these "hulls" are shallow, and the forward portion of the "added hulls" have a greater draft and attach to the "tramsom" of the monohull. As the boat heels the windward aft hull is lifted out of the water and the lee ward hull sinks. In effect you are copying some of the concepts of the round alone boats which typically are very wide transoms, in fact the boats keep getting wider the further aft you go. In my models, these added "hulls" can be up to 1/2 the lenght of the boat. Estectically they don't look bad either, at least to me. I realize that they may increase the angle of attack of the boat and may require 2 rudders. They may require a trim tab on the keel, or daggerboards. Any one have any thoughts? Has anyone seen examples? 1055 From: greenguy2ca Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 11:31pm Subject: Water bladders 36 Ft Twin Keeler I am thinking of putting in a water bladder on top of each keel for my "water tank". Has anyone had any experience or info regarding this option and where to buy them. Thanks... Gary 1056 From: Brian Dixon Date: Mon Sep 9, 2002 11:41pm Subject: Re: "monocat" I guess it would be best to see a picture, but I would think that a widening V shape behind the boat, or as part of a boat, would create additional resistance. Water should be allowed to come together again behind the boat, assuming you are talking displacement hulls here. And if a long portion of the stern is shallow draft and you have deep draft f'w'd, then I'd also worry about the risk of bow-steering and broaching in a following sea. Just my 2-bits...without seeing a pic, it's hard to say. Brian 1057 From: Steven Lewis Date: Wed Sep 11, 2002 9:23am Subject: Messabout! Howdy, I'm new to this group and I'm interested in finding anyone who has built a boat and wants to attend a Messabout. We are going to host one at Lake Okaboji, in NW Iowa. Already have folks interested who live in Minneapolis, Dakota Dunes(SD), and NW Iowa. This will happen next summer(June-Aug) and are looking for other participants. Doesn't matter what you might have built, so long as it floats, and looks like it might fit into the definition of a boat. Please email me off post if you might be interested. Steve. 1058 From: gjm123smau Date: Thu Sep 12, 2002 6:14am Subject: Steel list for 40ft boat Hi all is there a steel list around for a 40ft to42 ft boat?? or do you add on to the demensions of the 36?? Not that I am lazy but if there was i would appreciate it so as I can start scrounging for steel and stainless plate and pipe. Thanks Regards Graeme Perth Australia 1060 From: brentswain38 Date: Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:34pm Subject: Re: "monocat" As I point out in my book, wide sterns eliminate directional stability and make a boat very skitish on the helm. I believe this is why a round the world racer named "Allied Bank ' had to drop out in Capetown after burning out every autopilot they had in the first leg. It was extremely wedge shaped . The lack of directional stability is why they need twin rudders to maintain some semblance of control over them. My first steel boat had a very assymetrical waterline shape. It didn't have anywhere near the directional stability I wanted. For my current boat I widened the waterline foreward by 3 inches and narrowed it aft by a similar amount. There was a huge improvement in directional stability. Wide sterns and narrow bows are a big mistake on cruising boats where directional stability is very important. Brent Swain 1061 From: brentswain38 Date: Sat Sep 14, 2002 7:37pm Subject: New mailing address My new mailing address is 3798 Laurel Dr, Royston BC Canada V0R2V0 You can order books and plans from this address. My new e-mail address is brentswain38@y... Brent Swain 1062 From: capt_john2002 Date: Wed Sep 18, 2002 5:27am Subject: Book Well the "nautical mind book store" has finally recieved their book order and I got my copy today. Maybe some other builders in Toronto can use some of your insight. .... thanks. John 1063 From: lbanerd Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 5:11pm Subject: New photos of two Swain hulls In the Photos section, I have posted several shots of two different Brent Swain hulls on the hard in a local marina: a black-hulled 26- footer and what looks like a 40-footer, both twin-keelers. 1064 From: kwing175 Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:47pm Subject: ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig Does anyone have knowledge about, experience with, Bray Yacht Design in White Rock B.C? Any information would be greatly appreciated. http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/html/saisha.html In his list of plans is a 42', twin keel, junk rigged vessel. He states ......"The hull is built on a unique pull together steel sheet method which gives rounded sections both fore and aft with only a small chine amidships, making this boat extremely easy and fast to construct. After the skin plates are cut from patterns and pulled together the interior stiffening and bulkheads can be put in, and the deck put on. At this time interior finish work can be done with the hull already closed up. This method requires a minimum of temporary framing and neither material nor time is wasted on work which will not be apart of the finished product." This sounds allot like the origami approach. Regards, Keith 1065 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:02pm Subject: Re: ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig Keith, I contacted Patrick Bray about the AISHA design some years ago, as I was interested in a larger Swain hull, but Swain hadn't yet designed the 40. Bray told me that it was indeed based on Swain's origami technique. It is the only hull Bray designed using that system, as far as I know. At that time, the client who commisioned Aisha did not go ahead with building it, so no prototype exists. My personal opinion is that a first-time boatbuildng project of that magnitude should be based on a design which has been built at least once so that many of the bugs can be worked out. That's just my thought based on a natural instinct to follow a well-worn path. It is for this reason that I bought the plans for the Swain 40: One has already been built and successfully sailed to the South Pacific and back (Mishar in Vancouver), and another is nearly complete (Amazing Grace, also in Van). So now there is a pool of experience I can dip into (parasite, I am!) and soak up knowledge. A yacht designer needn't be a boatbuilder in order to design a boat, but I have to admit that there is great confidence inspired by the fact that Swain has built more of boats to his own designs than he can count on his hands and feet (and a few other hands if he had them). There are over 100 of his designs built out there. That just sits right with me, even though as a boatbuilder I know lots of boats have been prototyped with very few problems. Brent Swain's intimate familiarity with how steel behaves must have an impact on how he designs. In addition, any errors in the plans discovered through building the hulls have been corrected on the plans, saving a lot of headache for the first-time builder. Being a true Scotsman at heart, the price of Swain's plans is appealing ($500 for the 40), vs $2200 for Aisha. On the other hand, some may argue that the cost of the plans is a very small part of the over all cost of the hull. For me, I'm counting every penny! Bray's Aisha plans feature full detailing of the interior and systems, while Swain's leave the interior mostly up to the owner. Since most people building a custom boat build a custom interior (I have yet to see two identical interiors in Swain's boats, though some borrow idea from each other), the lack of interior drawings on the Swain plans is not a drawback. It all depends on what level of detail you are looking for, and how much you want to spend. By buying Brent's plans, I've got an extra $1700 to put into an engine, I like to think! All that said, it is likely that the AISHA boat would go together as advertised, and in fact making a simple cardpaper model would tell you this quickly, so I wouldn't ignore his work solely based on lack of a prototype. Patrick Bray has a really great site, I must say, and I enjoyed everything he wrote. He has a great article on the advantages of twin keels that is a must read. Alex Christie 1066 From: kwing175 Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 0:11am Subject: RE: ASISHA 42' twin keel junk rig Alex, Thanks for the quick response. I believe we think very much alike. Keith 1067 From: Phil S. Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 8:22pm Subject: Plans Purchase Hey Gang: Maybe I missed it in the book someplace but I was wondering where I can buy a set of plans for Brent's designs for a 40 to 47 footer. Although I plan to put it together as more of a motor sailer/ troller yacht than pure sail boat. Has anyone else tried using this type of coonstruction for a troller design? i like the idea of back up sails and ease of construction. I just don't know anything about sail boats or sailing. Thanks Phil 1068 From: riptide0037 Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 8:44pm Subject: re 40 footers Alex I too am serious about a 40 ft twin keel. Expec to be in Van next month . Is it possible I could contact the two owners you mention. I would appreciate talking to anyone who has or is building a 40 ft Robert 1069 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:23pm Subject: Re: re 40 footers Hi Robert, Gord Schnell, an instructor at BCIT, is finishing Amazing Grace in Vancouver. He can be reached at gschnell@s... , and was willing to show me around his boat but I didn't find the time to get over. Maybe we can combine a visit when you are in Van. Gord also knows the owners of Mishar, the other 40, and mentioned getting together with them for an evening. They have lots of interesting ocean experiences to relate, I'm sure. Are you far from Vancouver? Alex 1070 From: Ditmore, Stephen Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:57pm Subject: RE: Plans Purchase I think Brent's hulls would make good trawlers, but for comparison check also http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=24177a7bbdeb3a39cee05f17f03971 9e&threadid=417&highlight=Trawler Fair Winds, Stephen 1071 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 8:11pm Subject: Re: Plans Purchase Plans for the 40 footer can be purchased from Brent at: Brent Swain at 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC, V0R-2V0, Canada The 40 footer plans are $500.00 I am not sure how much for shipping - - I'll find out. The people at Confidence www.boatbuilding.ws have done some drawing for a trawler version of Brent's boat, to give you an idea. For transoceanic journeys, I think nothing beats sailing for saving fuel! You could always build the 40 as a trawler and add mast and sails later. Keep in mind that it is important avoid building in excessive weight up high, however. Brent's boats are designed with quite low pilot houses in order to keep centre of gravity as low as possible -- generally a sensible rule for most sailboats. Also, the higher you go, the more small amounts of weight count! If you wanted a substantially large pilot house as on most trawlers, then choosing a design that has this already may be a better idea. Alex 1072 From: riptide0037 Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:37am Subject: 40 ft twin keel Alex Thanks for the info.Do you or anyone have a steel cost for the 40ft, preprimed of course.How much lead goes in those keels ? I realize everyones boat can vary after those basics but I sure would appreciate some ballpark figures if anyone has built a 40ft and doesn`t mind sharing that. I will post another message when I know dates for Van visit. Would enjoy meeting you . Is there a way to share phone info ? Does Brent have study plans ? I have his book. Robert 1073 From: Brian Dixon Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:04am Subject: RE: 40 ft twin keel I'm a lurker...actually some guy in a welding class who may build a metal boat some day. Have a question: Pre-primed? I assume you can buy metal that is pre-primed and it at least avoids the quick rust issue (from atmospheric moisture)? If so, does it weld straightaway, or do you brush the joints and then weld? Brian 1074 From: Phil S. Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 2:19pm Subject: Trawler Design Hi Alex: Thanks for your input, I was thinking something along the lines of a Diesel Duck wheel house but smaller. I have allot of research to do before I make a decision. After reading allot of story's by cruisers and sail folks, I noticed the sailing guys saying the same thing over and over again. "Wind was from the wrong directtion (or no wind at all) so we motored for the last 30 hours" See this site as an example http://www.aljian.com/mandolin/ index.html Well what I feel would work for me is a Motor vessel that can sail if the wind is right, or as get to land and spare parts power. I am still looking for a copy of Robert BeeBee's book but haven't had much luck finding an original copy. But I will primarily want to sit in my nice comfy wheel house and drive the boat. I live on the great lakes and 75% of the year it is either cold and snowing or cold and raining. I also will tend to be cruising in the finger lakes and on the NYS Canal system, so masts will be a pain in the behind to step and unstep them. Eventually when all 5 of my kids go off to their own lives I intend to do some serious cruising, only 7 more years.....LOL Thanks for the help after Cristmas I will be done with my house and can start on my boat. Phil 1075 From: Phil S. Date: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:38pm Subject: Dove 3 I really like the look and size of the wheel house on the Dove3. I just need a larger boat for the large family. She is the design I have in mind, which is also really similar to the Meta built Voyager series, also a Framesless design. With the efficient sailing hull design I wouldn't need much over 80 HP (OK even that would be over doing it for hull speeds) The Meta Voyager has two BMW 50HP engines. The design looks like a sail boat with a slightly larger wheel house. Pretty cool, I just won't ever have the $150K to buy one. thanks Phil 1076 From: Gord Schnell Date: Fri Sep 27, 2002 4:28pm Subject: Re: 40 ft twin keel Steel cost for hull, decks, keel and cabin run about $6800Cdn. Tankage, dodger, rudder and skeg are extra. Depending on how much stainless you use, it can sky-rocket from there. 1077 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Sat Sep 28, 2002 2:33am Subject: Re: 40 ft twin keel Gord Have you got a materials list for the 40ft er so as I can start scrounging steel . Stainless steel can be bought from scrap dealers for $3.00 per kg but you have to keep on going back to have a look to see if the pieces that you want are there flat ,pipe etc Regards Graeme Australia 1078 From: riptide0037 Date: Sun Sep 29, 2002 6:30pm Subject: 36 twin keel If Paul Deprie [sp ?]is watching this forum or if anyone knows him I would like to contact him . I just bought a 36 twin keel that he apparently built, would appreciate talking to him. Robert 1079 From: Gord Schnell Date: Mon Sep 30, 2002 3:39am Subject: Re: 40 ft twin keel The materials list with my plans (original 40' plans) was very incomplete. I haven't tried to create a more accurate one because I have added many things the plans do not call for. I purchased all my stainless (with the exception of the railings and bulwarks) from scrap dealers as well. The one I generally buy from sells for $1/lb. or less. Your right, you do have to keep going back until the right piece shows up. Gord 1080 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Oct 1, 2002 11:01pm Subject: Gary Noble Curtis references Hi Group, Found a few references to Gary Noble Curtis, who as some of you may know, was involved with the Metal Boat Society, and has done some steel design work in the origami style. There are very few references to him online, and it appears that his work is not prolific, but it is interesting to look at. It appears that Gary's system is somewhat similar to Brent's, but not entirely. The photos of one of the hulls in build show a more complicated system of 6 chain come-alongs in order to keep the shape of hull before it is welded, plus there is some sort of chine shape in the stern quarters. http://www.gossamersf.com/silver.htm photos of GNC's boat and hull in build http://www.reveils.com/people/Gary/latitude38.htm interesting article about steel vs aluminum for boats, originally printed in Latitude 38 Magazine. Alex 1081 From: The Bumby's Date: Wed Oct 2, 2002 6:52am Subject: Re: Gary Noble Curtis references Thank you for the information. I went to both sites and I must say, very good. I've not started a boat yet but I'm looking forward to building one in the future. At the moment, I'm repairing an older fiberglass boat with rotted wood. I the information from origamiboats letters has been very helpful in my decision on building fiberglass or steel. Thanks again and God Bless!!!! Ernest 1082 From: Alex Christie Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 0:49am Subject: Re: Steel list for 40ft boat Here is the basic materials list for the 40 footer: Hull: 2-8'x40'x3/16" plate - hull 1-4x12x3/16" Plate - hull 3-5x8x3/16 plate -transom Deck: 3-5x12x1/8" plate - decks 4-4x8x1/8" plate cockpit seats, cockpit, rudder, etc 1-4x10x1/8" - plate -cabinsides 2-6x16x1/8" plate -cabintops Stiffeners: 10-1"x1"x1/4"x20' angle 15-1"x3/8"xx20' flatbar 4-20' lengths 1 1/2"(1.5")sched 40 galvanized or SS pipe Keel, single -- I'll have to ask Brent next month about twin keel parts; he is somewhere out in the middle of the S. Pacific right now, heading towards Christmas Island in his 31 foot twin keeler -- lucky guy!) 1-8x10x1/4" plate 1-2x12x1/2" plate 1-3'x6" sch 80 pipe (leading edge0 Twin keel uses 2.5" shaft steel--not pipe-- this I do know! The following items can be pre-built before the hull even takes shape, and require mostly stainless steel, or aluminum for hatches. The materials for these would all be based on plans in the book: Anchor winch (ss) mast tabernacle (ss) bow roller (ss) anchor winch handle pad (ss) mooring bitts (3, made of pipe, plate, and rod) cleats (ss rod) stanchions (ss pipe, 1", I think) chainplates (ss plate) chockliners (3/8" ss rod, and some 1/2" for bow and stern chockliners) SS ball valves - 2-1.5", 2-3/4" aluminum for forehatch ss doubler plates below mooring bits ss rod and pipe for gudgeons and pintles ss for self steering plexiglass or lexan for portlights in cabinsides and top of ph The dimensions for everything that can be prebuilt are noted on the plans and in the book -- it is really a matter of going through it all and making up a master list, then keeping your eyes peeled for good scrounge deals. *When* I start my boat (famous last words), I'll try and keep track of my list, which I'll share with the group. Some of you may be finished your boats by the time I get started, judging by the way things are going around here (house renovations!). 1083 From: prairiemaidca Date: Thu Oct 3, 2002 9:04pm Subject: Fin Keel placement.. HI All: Well the time has come where the keel is ready and I have to cut that big hole in the hull of our 36ft hull. There seems to be some discrepancy in the plans as to where exactly it should go. On one page it shows the forward edge of the keel contacting the hull aprox. 10in. forward of the centre of the mast. Yet in another it looks that the forward point [top] of the keel is directly below the mast. Do we have a concensus out there as to it's exact placement in relation to the mast??? Martin (prairiemaid) 1084 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Fri Oct 4, 2002 5:16am Subject: Re: Re: Steel list for 40ft boat Alex Thanks for that will start the scrounging , let the fun commence hope to have all the bits made before the hull . I have the book. so all I now need I guess is to purchase the plans . With the twin keel in alloy what size is the leading edge of the keels ??? or is there some other way filling with lead to make them solid ???? Regards Graeme 1085 From: riptide0037 Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 0:13am Subject: 36 twin keel If anyone knows this or has a 36 twin keel out of water and can take two measurements I would appreciate it.The boat I just bought is in water and the boat haulers want to know the distance apart of the keels at their base [widest part] They also are asking for the height from bottom of keels to top of pilothouse.My boat is traditional in design so I expect would compare in size to other 36 fters. If you have had a twin keel hauled in the Vancouver area recently could you post the name of the boat hauler.These guys seem nervous if they don`t have twin keel experience. Thanks. Robert 1086 From: Gord Schnell Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 6:43am Subject: Re: Fin Keel placement.. DIRECTLY below. 1087 From: Alex Christie Date: Sat Oct 5, 2002 10:16pm Subject: new photo albums added to photo section Dear Group, I've added two new photo albums: 36' Ocean Pearl -- a 36 footer for sale down on Saltspring Island, BC. 32' Nomidic -- 32 footer for sale in Mazatlan, Mexico, currently feature photo on the origamiboats home page. Both are very nice looking boats! Alex 1088 From: Alex Christie Date: Mon Oct 7, 2002 6:21pm Subject: Info about cover photo Dear Group, Occasionally, as a Swain vessel comes up for sale, I'll post information about it for any interested parties looking for a boat of this type. Not advertising per se, just passing along the info! The featured boat is the same as on the group's home page this month. Photos are posted under "32' Nomadic" in photo section. The boat is selling for $48,000 US. The URL for the sellers, Mazatlan Marine Center in Mexico, is located at http://www.yachtworld.com/mazmarine/ Alex ----------------------------------------------------------------- This is a well designed and beautifully finished steel vessel. Her construction is A-36 steel plate SS reinforced. Her deck is welded through sampson posts. Her rigging SS 1x19, swagged at mast and Norseman fittings at deck. The hull is insulated, keel is modified fin with encased ballast. Headroom is 6' 2" Brent Swain the designer personally oversaw it's construction. The pilot station includes engine, steering, system and navigational equipment controls. Autopilot has a remote and Fleming windvane new in '97. Easy access to engine, battery boxes with cabin sole hatches to all through hulls and bilge area. Galley has gimbaled Force 10 stove, refer/freezer, vented propane locker under cockpit. Interior finish is teak an mahogany, cabin sole teak & holly. Vessel is already documented. More photos are available at your request. ------------------------------------------------------------------ 1089 From: jonhackett44 Date: Wed Oct 9, 2002 3:51am Subject: Steel list and suppliers Hi gang! My first post...ready to start construction on 36' twin keel. I have a lot of questions...please be patient... I live in Seattle and am going to start building the "small stuff" over the winter and start the hull next spring. I would appreciate info on the following: What kind/grade of steel am I looking for? Where in Seattle or the Northwest can I find it?(wheel abraided and primed) Primed how? If I import it from Canada, what, if any, are the hoops to jump through to get it here? Is there a way to predetermine if the steel is properly primed? Is it necessary to sandblast this primer before applying paint? What kind of paint? How many coats? Interior and/or exterior? Who in the Seattle area does a conscientious job in the spray foam department? Engine choice? Planning to sail the Pacific rim and BC.... ...Yanmar?...Isuzu?...Perkins?...Universal? Any info will help greatly... Thanks in advance J.Hackett 1090 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 8:06pm Subject: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Dear Group, We are in the early planning stages of a 2 week course called Introduction to Origami Steel Boatbuilding Techniques. The course is to be held on Vancouver Island (Comox Valley area), BC, in 2003. If anyone is interested in joining this class (there will be a maximum of 6 participants), drop me a line at origamiboats@t... to indicate interest. The course is oriented to those who wish to build their own origami steel boat, but wish to gain skills on another project first. No previous boatbuilding or welding experience is necessary. One complete bare hull, either a 31 foot or 36 foot twin keel design, will be built over a period of about 10 to 14 days. The completed shell will include the hull, decks, cabin tops and pilot house, as well as keels, skeg and rudder. A small amount of stainless detailing will be done to give students a good grasp of this process. As well, some of the wood furring strips will be installed in the interior in preparation for spray foaming, and students will be briefed on engine bed construction. This is by no means a welding course, as all the knowledge for welding could not possibly be taught in such a short time. However, there will be a general introduction to the techniques and participants will be able to learn some techniques under supervision. Taking an introductory welding course in advance could be helpful, but is not required, and could be taken afterwards. Some time will be taken to go on a field trip to view other boats in build, as well as completed boats in the water. If possible, participants will be able to go out for a sail in an Swain sailboat. Topics which we'll cover (tentative list): -General welding knowledge -ac welding and oxy/gas cutting safety -worksite layout -- setting up a workspace, organizing materials, - project planning -lofting patterns full-size -cutting and tacking -plate material handling, alignment and welding -detailing - welding stainless steel and aluminum -keel and skeg installation -hull interior firring strip installation -basic theory of interior design -other topics to be announced With a small number of participants (6), there will be a good opportunity to tailor some aspects of the course to meet specific interests that students would like to explore. This course will be very intensive, but not stressful, and basic good physical health is all that is required (ie, you don't need to be a weight-lifter). There won't be much required to bring other than personal safety equipment such as steel-toed boots, welding gloves, cover-alls, ear- protection and a welding helmet. Anyhow, I'm passing this your way, and based on the response I'll go ahead with further planning. I think it'll be an exciting experience and a definite boon for anyone contemplating building one of these boats but unsure of how to go about it. Regards, Alex Christie moderator, Origamiboats 1091 From: Joe Earsley Date: Wed Oct 16, 2002 10:05pm Subject: RE: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Alex, Please count me in! Please keep me posted on the particulars. Joe Earsley 6910 Potter Heights Drive Anchorage, AK, USA 99516 jearsley@a... 1092 From: Bert Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:47am Subject: Re: Origami boat building class Alex: I'm desirous of attending, also, do you have any dates in mind? Costs? Location? Bert Eggers email: berte@p... phone: 989 790 7598 1093 From: Bert Date: Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:50am Subject: Bow roller material??? Hi all. I'm wondering what might be successful as a relatively inexpensive material for anchor chain/line bow rollers? What general diameter seems to work? I see some awfully pricey bow roller replacements in the marine catalogs....;o( Best to all, Bert Eggers in Michigan 1094 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:43pm Subject: Re: Bow roller material??? Brent's book has an excellent write-up on this subject. I am leery of ripping off information right from the book without his say, but I'll try and paraphrase in a general way how it is done. The book has complete drawings, details and instructions for making your own inexpensive rollers of any size and shape out of that white high-density polypropylene sheet. You can get hd polypropylene from plastic shops or at your local kitchen store in the form of cutting board, and on occasion at surplus stores (restaurant supply wharehouses that liquidate restaurant kitchen materials would be another great spot for used polypro, and I bet it would be quite thick sheet). If shopping at a kitchen shop, beware the cheap plasticky non-polypropylene kinds from China or Taiwan, as these look more or less the same but are cheaper in quality and will not last as long-- make sure you go and feel what real HD Polypropylene is supposed to feel like, then compare to what you might find in the kitchen store by feel and look. It is really a matter of where you can find the material for the best price. The disc diameter he suggests in his book is 4 inches. You stack and bolt the discs together with smaller bolts, making sure to countersink each hole on either end (these are permanent bolts and nuts, and therefor have to allow the roller to spin unimpeded), drill on centre a 3/8" hole, install 3/8" bolt and tighten it, put the end of bolt into a drill, hold the drill in a vice or workmate and use it as a lathe to cut the discs to the desired shape. At this cheap a price, you can make yourself as many as you'd like --- take a few extra for cruising friends you meet in Bora Bora who are miserable because their store-bought bow rollers fell apart and they can't get a replacement shipped in before cyclone season sets in! So much for paraphrasing -- I ended up telling all! :-) Did I mention the book? $20 + $3 shipping from Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, BC, V0R-2V0, Canada. I'm sure he'd appreciate it. Alex 1095 From: intiaboats Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:42pm Subject: Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Sign me up! I think that you will need to schedule several workshops. You will most probably be swamped with replies of interest. In fact, sign my Father up also. 1096 From: Keith Wingate Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:15pm Subject: RE: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Alex, What would we do without you! Count me in for the course. Please keep me abreast of development and costs. Thanks, Keith Wingate Maritime Resource Services 17511 Heritage Creek Court Webster, TX 77598-3120 kwing175@e... V: 281-554-5549 M: 713-202-8674 1097 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Oct 17, 2002 9:30pm Subject: Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Hi Keith, Great to hear from you. The timing for this course will be entirely dependent on what I hear back from Brent himself as to when he may be coming back from the his offshore adventures. It would be great to get something going by spring, but again I'll have to see how the planning goes. I haven't run the numbers on what the course might cost yet, as it is very early in the planning stages, but it should be similar to the reasonable offerings from other places such as WoodenBoat School (they have a two week intro course)and the Northwest School of Boatbuilding in Port Townsend. The location will be in the Comox valley, near Courtenay, BC. I'll keep you posted as to developments. Regards, Alex 1098 From: Gord Schnell Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 3:11am Subject: Re: Bow roller material??? 5/16" winch cable works well. You can make your bow rollers from 4"-6" solid epoxy (or similar) caster wheels turned on a lathe to suit. 1099 From: jonhackett44 Date: Sat Oct 19, 2002 9:50pm Subject: Vancouver boats A friend and I are driving up to Vancouver next weekend and would appreciate seeing any Swain boats while there. Please email me directly if there are any examples we can see. Thanks in advance! Jon and Laurie jonhackett@h... 1100 From: fmichael graham Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:20am Subject: Re: Vancouver boats I know that Ray Donaldson has a 27' Swain, "Dove III", at his brokerage. The brokerage is called "Harbour Yacht Sales" and is located on Marine Drive in West Vancouver, at Eagle Harbour, just past Thunderbird Marina. I believe that Ray is open on Saturday, but not Sunday. The telephone number is: (604)921-7428. You can view the boat on Ray's website: www.harbouryachtsales.com Good luck 1101 From: david_hilliar Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:13am Subject: Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Hi all This is a great idea unfortunatly it is a long way from New Zealand and impossible for me to come. As a suggestion how about also making a video of the process so we can see how it is done. If the price is right I would purchase a video of the what the attendies are taught. Since reading Brets book I am very interested in the process and design. Keep up the good work. David 1102 From: Brian Dixon Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:25am Subject: Brent's book I emailed Brent a few days ago asking about where to send for the book and how much it is. Anyone know? And I can't find a web site for the Swain boats...I wonder why not? Seems very odd in today's world... Brian 1103 From: Pat Folk Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:30am Subject: Re: Brent's book Here is his webpage: http://www.boatbuilding.ws/brent.htm 1104 From: Alex Christie Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 6:08am Subject: Re: Brent's book Brian, Brent would not be able to respond to any emails currently as he is about half way across the Pacific Ocean in his boat! He does have someone handling the mailouts of his books and plans while he is away, however. To order his book by mail, write to: Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive, Royston, British Columbia, Canada V0R-2V0 The cost is USD$20 plus $3 for shipping, payable to Brent Swain. I believe he takes cheque or money order. As for websites, there is no official website for Brent currently. The www.boatbuilding.ws website is for Confidence Custom Steel Boatbuilding in Penticton, which features Brent's boat designs in their repertoire but are not connected to him beyond that. So far, Brent is pretty happy with the Yahoo group site, though I am working on getting a new site up sometime this winter. Alex 1105 From: fmichael graham Date: Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:16pm Subject: Re: Re: Brent's book Alex, Thanks for your support & assistance to us builders & wannabe's. I am also looking for Brent's book. Popeye's Marine Store (North Vancouver) used to sell it but I haven't seen it there on my last few visits. Is there a store in the Vancouver area that stocks it? Where does one go to discuss the purchase of Brent's boat design plans? Am I right in assuming that you are Brent's alter-ego whilst he travels the planet or are you just some poor guy whom has been dragged - kicking and screaming - into the forum of answering our questions? Anyway, thanks for all of your efforts. Regards, Mike Graham (fmichaelgraham@y...) 1106 From: Alex Christie Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:03pm Subject: Re: Brent's book Yes Mike, I was dragged kicking and screaming! Actually kidding, it has been a great pleasure spreadin' the good word about these boats over the past couple of years, and equally rewarding meeting some fine cruising people who have built to his design. They seem to be a really good lot, and I don't know if this is a function of being cruisers, or it is the kind of people attracted to the style and practicality of his boats, but I like what I have seen of that world. As to being Brent's alter-ego...I wouldn't go that far!:) Popeye's has carried his book before, but perhaps they haven't been restocked before Brent left. It is likely best to get the book by mail at the address listed in the files section or group home page, as he has someone who will ship out books and plans for him while he is away. Write to: Brent Swain 3798 Laurel Drive Royston, BC V0R-1 (should be V0R-2V0 - Ed) Plans for the 26 are $200, for the 31 $300, for the 36 $350, and $500 for the 40. The book is $20 plus $3 for postage. Alex 1107 From: Alex Christie Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:08pm Subject: Brent's postal code Sorry--I left off the proper postal code for Brent's mailing address: V0R-2V0 (see I told you - Ed) 1108 From: Paul Faulkner Date: Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:28pm Subject: Re: Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement I would be very interested in an origami boat building class. Having a job and living in Arizona complicate this greatly and my participation would depend on the timing of the course. I would be very interested in a video detailing the construction of an origami boat. 1109 From: The Bumby's Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:16am Subject: Re: Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement If you can keep the cost around 15 for the video, I'ld like one. Thanks! Ernest 1110 From: John Jones Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:40am Subject: Re: Re: Origami boatbuilding course announcement Oh yea; A video would be such a cool aid to construction. If yah make one, I'll buy it.... John 1111 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:02am Subject: Video that would be great Alex the video idea is great , but I would still be interested in having a building work shop in Australia when you work out the costs, for your local courses please post them so as we pehaps look at costing a course here. Regards Graeme Mitchell 1112 From: Alex Christie Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 7:49pm Subject: missing posts -- anyone encountering problems? Is anyone in the group finding that posts that they have made from the website have not appeared? Please let me know so I can query Yahoo about it. There is a log in the management panel which indicates that messages have been posted, but I don't see those messages on the board. Alex 1113 From: richytill Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:31pm Subject: The Plan In general, the first time you build or repair something it takes a while to figure out better ways to do it: the third time seems to be fairly smooth. I tend to experiment and innovate--there is often a price to pay for this bent(read repeated failure or more time and materials). Thinking in terms of quality and efficiency I have a few observations that may be an asset to, would be, one time builders. These are not irrefutable facts; just the personal observations of one builder. Point 1: delays in construction have been mainly due to my own deviations from the plans and the book. If you decide to do something different be aware that it may require vast amounts of time designing, testing, adapting and making patterns etc. The outcome of experiments may not have the time tested and proven result you will eventually need to be safe at sea. Point 2: scrounge for parts and material early in the game--if you can. This means you can build to fit the components, metal type etc.. Don't be tempted to use a neat gizmo just because you find it free in a pile of junk--use stuff that really works. It helps to have a variety of surpluss stainless to choose from. Lead can often be accumulated at less cost if you take your time arranging to collect it. Point 3: In his book, Brent, with good reason, emphasises the advantage of rapid construction. I planned a long liesurely event: wrong. It costs way more to go slow. If rent is a factor it can add up--it is also possible to wear out your welcome with the neighbours. If the hull is outdoors, the primer on the plate will harden and eventually rust through, all over, in tiny spots and scratches. Rapid construction can help prevent this. After testing, I ended up having to sand blast--a dirty, noisy, unhealthy, time consuming, and very exspensive undertaking that should be avoided if possible. The blasting makes painting harder because of all the grit in the painting environment. Few locations allow blasting and the clean-up is a pain. With some 2 part paints there are re-coat times to consider: check the re-coat window on the type of primer used at wheelabrading. Apparently, fresher zinc primer provides a superior bond for the subsequent epoxy. Point 4: I notice that some people take a lot longer to learn to cut and weld than others. Some adapt, some don't and some just shine from start to finish. This is quite natural. We all have certain skills and talents. There are plenty of other tasks to do besides welding and cutting during building. Perhaps it would be more effective, safe and efficient for some of us to get an experienced welder to help with some of the critical seams and cuts. I suppose that depends on the amount of time and budget one has available. I am at the painting stage on a 36' Swain hull. The process of building has been really enjoyable and very rewarding. Having worked on vessels with internal frames and compared the two proceedures it becomes evident that folded steel is superior in many, many ways. The advantages are extnesively listed throughout this group site. It would be an asset to anyone to see a hull formed by those with experience before attempting it at home. All in all, it has been fun so far and in conclusion, the plan works. 1114 From: mishima_sensei Date: Thu Oct 24, 2002 10:51pm Subject: Do you like to design boats ? Join the amateur boat design challenge on http://dc.endtas.com/ The more we will be the more fun it will be... (origami designers are welcome..) 1115 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:09am Subject: Re: missing posts -- anyone encountering problems? I have had this problem on a few occasions. 1116 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:24am Subject: missing posts -- false alarm It turns out that the missing posts issue was a false alarm. I was confused by something in a record log I stumbled on. All back to normal... Alex 1117 From: Alex Christie Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 9:10am Subject: Re: The Plan Thanks for your commentary and reflections on your boatbuilding experiences, Rich. Great stuff! Alex 1118 From: silascrosby Date: Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:57pm Subject: 'Silas Crosby' Having just returned from a year-long cruise to Mexico and Hawaii I'll pass on a few of my thoughts on our twin-keel 36' Brentboat. We launched the Silas Crosby about 9 yrs. ago and have had 3 trips around Vancouver Is. and a couple of trips to the Queen Charlottes.She is a centre-cockpit version which works well for us as we have kids and cousins and siblings who all want to go sailing. It means we get privacy with a double bunk in the aft -cabin. The cockpit is only 4'long but we can sleep across it by dropping down our cockpit table across the well. We put a new 4-cyl. Isuzu (~50 h.p.) in her and have nearly 3000 hrs. with zero problems. Skeg-cooled,dry exhaust. We put on an Isomat aluminum extrusion for mast and boom and have galvanised rigging.After 9 yrs. there is no rust except near the bottom of the inner forestay where the staysail hanks abrade.I'll replace that this winter for a few dollars.I slopped on some cheap paint on the standing rigging as high as I could reach from the deck just before we left for Mexico a year ago. The boat is painted with Devoe paints. We had the boat zinc flame sprayed after sand blasting at construction. We have no rust and I have done no re-painting yet. Even where it gets chipped it does not rust. I shall re-paint the cabin and topsides next spring to freshen it up. We are pleased with the sailing ability. We sailed from Cabo San Lucas to Hilo in 18 days for an average of ~6 knots.Good winds (double or triple reefed main most of the way) and zero motoring. She sails faster off the wind than our old boat, a Spencer 35, and perhaps as well to windward. On our return from Hawaii we had 3 days of spinnaker sailing ,around the clock,at ~4-5 knots of boat speed where the quick and simple wind-vane ( direct connection to trim-tab with verical axis vane) steered without human intervention.This is as as good as RVG,Aries,or Fleming vanes that I have used in the past.We still have not invested in an autopilot. We do not hand steer at sea. I could go on and on . All for now. Steve Millar, Courtenay. 1119 From: Alex and Kim Christie Date: Sun Oct 27, 2002 0:18am Subject: Re: 'Silas Crosby' Thanks for your anecdotes and thoughts Steve. It is the real-world use of these boats that tells us so much about how they perform and how it is living with and maintaining these boats. What you wrote is invaluable. Send us another installment! Alex 1120 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:43pm Subject: engine driven welder Hey folks, I just stumbled across this - http://www.zena.net/ -- an engine driven 150 amp welder that is powerful enough to build your boat, or certainly repair boats anywhere in the world. It is DC, so can weld stainless, aluminum, mild steel. Also functions as a high output alternator. Very handy, and makes good friends out of yachties with broken metal parts... Alex 1121 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:58pm Subject: using autoship to design origami hull Here's a little write-up by Grahame Shannon (designer), explaining how he used Autoship to design a larger hull to be built using Brent's origami techniques. A 47 foot hull was produced as a result. Unfortunately, no plans were to be made availabe to the public by Shannon or the builder (Sailtech or Fastwater). I know, because I spoke personally to Shannon, and he told me he wasn't interested in amateurs building to his design. You could try, but I wouldn't waste much time trying to get the plans if I were you. Besides, with the advent of Brent's 40 foot design, this issue is laid to rest and I got what I want! Interesting to read about the use of the computer to design one of these boats, in any case. Alex 1122 From: Jim Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:07am Subject: another engine driven welder to ponder another engine driven welder to ponder http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/index2.html I have installed and use two different unit of this variety. I was very pleased. I have yet to equip any of my fleet with such equipment- but definitely was pleased with what I saw. 1123 From: Pat Folk Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 5:23am Subject: Re: using autoship to design origami hull I think I missed part of this message. I am not able to find the reference you mention. 1124 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:57am Subject: What's with some of these designers they are to good for every one else. stuff them I say . Do not want mugs to build boats from their plans what's the world coming too. Dip them in honey and throw them to the lesbians that will teach them. Home builders most likely buy more plans than boat builders, whether they actual get used that is another thing . It does keep some of the designers in work. So 1125 From: Alex Christie Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:42pm Subject: oops, URL for "using autoship to design origami hull" http://www.autoship.com/whatsnew/Fall1996Body.htm Sorry 'bout that, the reference to Swain's hullform is in the 5ht article down (called FASTWATER 47), or use "find" function in "edit" on your toolbar with "swain" and it'll take you right there. Cheers, Alex 1126 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 6:51pm Subject: Re: another engine driven welder to ponder Is there anyone in the group who has marine electrical experience? I am curious to know whether either of the previously mentioned alternator/welders survive well in the salt-laden atmospher of the marine engine environment. They appear to be mostly advertised for under-hood of truck applications, though www.zena.net mentions marine use (and their warranty covers the unit in marine use). I had a boat once which came with a defunct volkswagen diesel (the previous owner had tried to convert it, unsuccessfully). In my forensic explorations of its carcass, I noted that most of the electrical components, including the alternator, were badly corroded --damaged by the salt air and mixed metals. I wouldn't stake my life on them in a tricky situation! As a side note to anyone considering the VW pathfinder conversions, I might also point out that the aluminum bell-housing where it used to attach to the old transmission was nothing but crumbling dust. The alloy was simply not meant for salty air, I guess. I'll allow that the old boat, made of wood with a fresh supply of salt water in the bilge, presented a harsher climate than the dry interior of a steel boat. But still, it makes one pause to consider the corrosion resistance of metals in whatever you put into a boat. Alex 1127 From: John Jones Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:29pm Subject: Re: another engine driven welder to ponder Go for diesel ALWAYS, it's safer, uses less fuel and re-sells faster ... and if you can ... oversize, just in case you get the need. 1128 From: John Jones Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 7:30pm Subject: Re: YEAH!!! 1129 From: Jim Date: Tue Oct 29, 2002 11:58pm Subject: Re: another engine driven welder to ponder Alex, One thing to mention is this; The pemier Power welder (all that I have had in hand to touch and feel) is a Bosch 200Amp alternator that then sends electricity to an auxilary mounted box in which there is a rectifing diode set to get it to DC. So what I'm getting at is that the alt. is engine mounted however the aux. box can be mounted where-ever. The alt. is going to corrode just as any other would. I do know that if you were to take apart an alternator and have the aluminum frame/ housing anandized and then have the armature re-wound with 316L SS and lastly replace the normally glass housed dioded with those which are epoxy packed- you will have a very corrosion resistant setup. The glass diode needs to be replaced with the epoxy packed for mainly one reason: when it does its job it produce a fare bit o heat and should it get splashed- the glass will burst, the epoxy will not. Jim 1130 From: riptide0037 Date: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:56pm Subject: "silascrosby" Steve Really enjoyed the account of your trip.Having just purchased a 36 twin keel with only one short trip in it so far I am keen to hear any info re how they sail,how you have it rigged etc. Please post more when you can.Would love to look at your boat sometime. Robert 1131 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Thu Oct 31, 2002 9:07pm Subject: Skeg cooler Are there any views on using the leading edge 1˝" pipe on the skeg as a return for coolant when the skeg is used as an engine cooler? Regards, Ted 1132 From: Gord Schnell Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 2:36am Subject: Re: Skeg cooler I considered that also, but, the stern tube and prop shaft intersect it and prevent that approach. Gord 1133 From: darryl_marlene Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 4:19am Subject: Re: Skeg cooler Hi ted I used this method successfully on my 36 foot Brent Swain . Instead of using the top of the pipe I welded another pipe near the top of it that came forward and through the hull under the shaft. It works great. My engine is mounted in the center of the boat but it should work on you`re boat too.. I also have an under the hood welder on board and have not had any problem`s . With dry exhaust you can weld on the hard most of the day in summer without overheating the engine . Carefull not to blister the paint at the top of the skeg where the hot water enters. Regard` Darryl S.V.'IKALE 1134 From: Phil S. Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 3:18pm Subject: Dry Exhaust? Ok I was looking at the diagram in Brent's book. it looks like the exhuast comes out the stern below the water line. That looks like a really simple way to solve that problem but doesn't the heat effect the hull where it exits? 1135 From: silascrosby Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 3:48pm Subject: Re: Dry Exhaust? My dry exhaust exits at the waterline so with any boat movement it is submerged and cooled . No problem with paint in that area from overheating. I would have liked to try incorporating it into the radar\solar panel arch over the aft deck. I saw this on a Finnish aluminum boat and it kept the exhaust smoke away from the crew and made it less likely to get water in the exhaust. I have a gooseneck in the exhaust pipe that goes up under the aft cabin overhead(well above the waterline),as well as a ss ball-valve at the transom , as well as a flapper valve at the top of the exhaust "snorkel" which is about two feet above the waterline. Additionally,in a big following sea, I reach over and put a zip-lock bag over the exhaust end( no problem if I forget it). Steve Millar 1136 From: Phil S. Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 6:50pm Subject: Re: Dry Exhaust? Thanks, I was trying to come up with a better way to vent the exhuast. I didn't like the Idea of a stack up through the cabin. How is the stack insulated? Phil 1137 From: Phil S. Date: Fri Nov 1, 2002 8:46pm Subject: Corroseal? Does any one have any experiance with a product called corroseal? I can't seem to find pre primed steel in my area, I really don't want to have to sand blast. I found an ad in B&H for a product called Corroseal, supposedly it is a rust converting primer. It coverts rust to a crystalline layer of black magnetite. Any one tried it? Phil 1138 From: Tom Y. Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 3:26am Subject: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD Found this: http://www.zena.net/ Check it out. Tom 1139 From: John Jones Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 4:37am Subject: Re: Corroseal? Good stuff I've used it and for me, it did what it said it would do. Just follow the instructions. There are limits to what it can save though 1140 From: darryl_marlene Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:27am Subject: Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD Hi Tom I checked out that wedsite and those welders look pretty good. if anyone is woundering how big to go 150 or 200 amp. My own is only 130 amps. and it welds 1/8 in. mild steel and S.S. rods with no problem at 100% duty cycle . these welders do work as good as they say in the ad Darryl 1141 From: Tom Y. Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:46am Subject: Re: Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD I think every so often, they put it on ebay for promotion. Like this one just ended: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1782547950&rd=1 You can have it for $405 or less depends on its reserved price. I wonder how well it charges the batteries... three stages or what? How's yours Darryl? Tom 1142 From: T & D Cain Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 5:16am Subject: RE: another engine driven welder to ponder Alex. & Jim, Corrosion is always a threat as you well understand, however, the way alternators are built and processed before assembly helps to retard the process. In particular, the stator and rotor windings of the usual 3 phase high-speed claw-pole alternator are wound with a high conductivity copper wire which is itself carrying a very tough skin of polyester varnish capable of providing a large margin of insulation from one turn to the next etc. and also resisting corrosion and abrasion quite well. It is often the connections which corrode, not the windings. After the windings are mounted in or on these components, they are usually give an additional coat of varnish using a vacuum impregnation process. There is always some compromise in any mass-produced process and in some cases the last step omitted, or is a thin coat since heat must be transferred to the air flow which is doing the cooling. Now to the point: You will not be able to buy 316 insulated wire (or any other grade of Cr/Ni) to do a rewind and neither would it be a good idea. We are talking material which is not too far from heater and toaster wire here, and if you wound any alternator with a stainless alloy, the output would be around 10% of the same unit wound with copper even if you could prevent the windings from shorting between turns!!! The relative resistivity is anything from 2 to 5, depending on the alloy. Toaster wire was originally called 'Nichrome'. It is not uncommon to see units which have been "tropicalised" by double dipping the wound components in a high quality electrical insulating varnish. This will have some small negative effect on the output versus component life because the copper temperature will rise to a higher value (and its resistance also in a bootstrapping-like way) because of the higher thermal resistivity of the coating. The heat must go somewhere. The last bit is a trade-off and usually the added corrosion protection is worth the consequence. On the diode packs, I wouldn't change a thing. A thin conformal coating of a Dow Corning compound would give adequate protection to the components and their connections. Genuine marine components usually have their internal electrical systems insulated from their frames, ie. They are a true two-wire device. Alternators of the automotive type are not easily converted to marine usage for other reasons. The majority have their frame as one of the DC connections and in steel boats, this feature (along with the automotive starter motor) has to be accounted for by isolating the entire engine via mounts and couplings and everything else that touches it in an electrical sense - ignore the seawater connections, they are not a major factor. This is not a huge problem, most installations these days feature soft flexible engine mounts (insulated) and a synthetic spacer after the transmission output flange. Throttle and gearshift are easily isolated from the boat or engine, only one end needs to be so. Some installations could use an insulated mounting for the alternator (vee belt drive) and a twin solenoid setup for the starter. However, in this case, all other sensors etc on the engine itself will be two-wire types which are isolated from the engine carcass. Terry 1143 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 8:17am Subject: welder Hi all again There was a few years back some instructions to make a vehicle alternator into a welder I will see if I can find it. It was very simple to make an alternator into a welder as I said I will see if I can find it and post it. Regards Graeme 1144 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 8:17am Subject: opps hi terry 1145 From: Sharad Sharma Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 3:13pm Subject: origamiboats welder Hi All After reading Mitchell's messazge i remember looking at this page on the web this page shows how u can assemble a simple Dc arc welder regards Sharad Sharma http://huv.com/jon/jeep/ Sharad Sharma Interworld Associates Nassaustraat # 108 D Oranjestad Aruba Dutch Caribbean Ph 0297829868 /0297633311 839277 Fx 0297829959 ICQ # is 8884436 1146 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 8:23pm Subject: Re: origamiboats welder That link for the home-made welder is great, Sharad, truly in the origamiboat spirit! Now, I am wondering how you control the amperage -- is there something you put on it as you would on a regular welder? Alex 1147 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 9:31pm Subject: Going sailing I am heading for the Seattle area on Tuesday from New Jersey to visit a customer. I have made plans with Dale Deforest to go sailing on his 36' Brent Swain boat on Saturday. Should be very interesting, I've never actually been on board a metal boat before. I have a digital camera, I'll take some pictures of Dale's boat if anyone is interested. Gary H. Lucas 1148 From: Sharad Sharma Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:23pm Subject: welder Hi all I honestly do not know as i have not tried it yet but will check with jon and get back if i have a reply i do not know if there are and tech savy people in our group who may be able to help regards Sharad Sharma 1149 From: Graeme Mitchell Date: Sun Nov 3, 2002 11:52pm Subject: Welder home built Sharad Thanks for finding that will save me going through old papers that are in the shed . Regards Graeme 1150 From: darryl_marlene Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 3:03am Subject: Re: Engine Driven 150Amp welder for $400 USD Tom on my welder the regulator is a single stage ford type reg. it`s external so a three stage regulator can be installed. on my unit to change the amps when welding you increase or decrease the engine RPM. Darryl 1151 From: T & D Cain Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 7:34am Subject: RE: Hi Graeme, THC 1152 From: Phil S. Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 2:18pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Basically I am going to use Corroseal instead of sand blasting the whole hull. What type of paint did you put over the stuff? I will get a sample to try out though. Thanks for the input. Phil 1153 From: Phil S. Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 2:21pm Subject: Re: Going sailing Please post the pictures!!!! Phil 1154 From: intiaboats Date: Mon Nov 4, 2002 6:16pm Subject: Re: welding alternators Just a thought; As a welder I would be more than a little concerned about using one of these engine-driven alternators for welding. I think that you would need a system that would supply a more stable arc and a safer method of current control than an adjuster attached to your stinger. In order to run at a true 100% duty cycle would take a very efficient system, one that I have not seen with any conventional welding machine. Then again, how many welders run at better than 60%? As for the "heat" control, I wouldn't be overly eager to hold several hundred amps of potential melt-down/short-circuit in my hand. There seems to be too great a chance to become part of the arc. However, I defer to those whom have used these same systems and look forward to their comments regarding my safety concerns. Mike 1155 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Tue Nov 5, 2002 8:03pm Subject: Re: Skeg cooler Darryl and Gord, Many thanks for your info. How did you set up the exhaust? Did you use a muffler or put the outlet under water? Regards, Ted 1156 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 1:41am Subject: photo of external water muffler To see how Brent muffles the exhaust on his boat, look at the photo album under "31' Sloop" under "skeg detail". While not very pretty, this is probably the simplest, most low-tech way to muffle the exhaust, using the Pacific Ocean as the muffler. There is a flap on the end of the outlet, which is below the water. The pipe enters the hull above the waterline. The objects above the exhaust pipe are the base of the swing-down boarding ladder and the exit point of the control rod from the inside steering station (connected to the trim tab on the rudder). Alex 1157 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 1:59am Subject: Brent's original post on external exhaust I just realized Brent had written about this before, so I'll repost what he wrote: From: "brentswain38" Date: Sat May 18, 2002 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Underwater exhaust for noise supression...WOW! Several friends have used underwater exhaust.A 10 guage hull with flat surfaces drummed a lot . A 36 footer with a 3/16th hull and 3 cylindre engine had no problem as the exhaust went out through a slighly curved and well re-inforced part of the hull. I tried it with a single cylindre diesel and the drumming was uncacceptable.Extending the exhaust several inches beyond the hull helped a bit but not enough. I now run a dry exhaust out the transom and use a couple of elbows to take it below the waterline where a rubber flap acts as a check valve . It has a 1/4 inch hole in the upper elbow for a siphon break. It has worked well for many years.I threw away the muffler and it didn't make any significant difference to the sound level. Diesel engineers have told me that you can go down 3 feet before back pressure becomes a problem, altho going 6 inches below the surface effectivly kills any sound you would otherwise hear. Brent Swain 1158 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 9:36am Subject: Re: photo of external water muffler Thanks Alex, A few more questions you may be able to help me with: Is the rubber flap valve made from a bicycle inner tube hose clipped to the exhaust pipe? It appears to be from the photo but one can't see for sure. Is the pipe galvanised water pipe or stainless? Is there a flexible connector between the pipe and the engine? Is it wrapped with insulation? Regards, Ted 1159 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Nov 6, 2002 5:20pm Subject: Re: photo of external water muffler Ted, The rubber flap is made of the inner sidewall of a car tire, and the external pipe is stainless. I haven't seen inside how Brent has the pipe connected to the engine, but I do know the main pipe is sch 40 stainless. I am guessing that if it is metal all the way to the engine, the last bit would be that semi-flexible pipe that looks a bit like accordian bellows (available from marine suppliers). The engine is solid-mounted, so not too much jumping around. On my old glass boat there was a reinforced rubber hose, but this was water cooled. Because Brent's exhaust is dry, I don't think he'd use rubber for the flexible connection. As for lagging the pipe, it's pure conjecture on my part but it is likely not needed since the hull is steel, unless you needed to protect humans from getting burnt by contact. I'll leave with the usual caveat to give Brent the last word on this - - whenever he gets ashore! Alex 1160 From: silascrosby Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 2:49am Subject: Re: Going sailing Gary, Dale and I had an informal match race in Comox Bay a couple of years ago. My boat is a twin-keeler and Dale's is a fin-keeler.He was faster close-hauled and we were pretty closely matched off the wind. I would sure like to do a re-match some day and really spend some time to quantify the performance differences. On the day we went out it was kind of gusty. I was singlehanding and Dale had an inexperienced friend along.It was fun sailing but no time for photos.My hands were full as I did not have my windvane functioning at that time. Say hello to Dale for me. Steve Millar. 1161 From: Phil S. Date: Thu Nov 7, 2002 8:05pm Subject: Reading old Posts As a fairly recent addition to this forum I decided to start at post one and read through. Wow, what a wealth of information, some of it useful, other just interesting. Alex, Thanks for taking the time to moderate this page. Phil 1162 From: Alex Christie Date: Fri Nov 8, 2002 7:25pm Subject: Re: Reading old Posts Thanks for your comments Phil. I have really enjoyed moderating the Origamiboats page these past two years, and look forward to more interesting posts from people around the world. I just took a trip down "Memory Lane" with a tour of the old posts myself and have realized how much knowledge people have contributed in addition to Brent's information and advice. Despite having to put up with Yahoo's advertising we've certainly made some great connections worldwide with this service, and for that I'm grateful. With the Yahoo service, the "group" has been nurtured into an entity in its own right. Not bad for something that doesn't cost money to sign up with! At some point, an idea such as this grows big enough that the author of the thing is prompted to risk giving it some real lifeblood and letting it fly free. So..I'm currently hard at work putting together an official Origamiboats website, and hope to have it up by the new year, giving us another home on the web with easy access. I have never done website creation before, so don't expect much at first, but I am drawing in resources (ie, web-designing friends) as needed to help get this thing up and running. Some of the old posts are so interesting that I'll have to put a special archival section in the new site that reprints some of the best posts! I am hoping that the new site will work in tandem with the Yahoo group, especially as a repository for articles and images that people can refer to easily. Eventually a forum could be set up on the new site (once I figure out how to do it), but I expect that is a long way off. Happy boatbuilding and boating to all, Alex Christie 1163 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Sat Nov 9, 2002 11:37pm Subject: Cockpits Looking at the photo the inside aft of Ocean Pearl, it doesn't appear to have a cockpit well, which together with no internal engine gives much more space for a stern cabin. Joshua Slocum's Spray didn't have a cockpit, nor does Tom Colvin's Gazelle. I am considering not fitting one on the 36' Brent design I am building. What are folks' views on the pros and cons of cockpits? Regards, Ted 1164 From: darryl_marlene Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 5:57am Subject: Dry exhaust --Ted My dry exhaust goes like this. My 3 cyl. Isuzu is mounted on rubber mounts so I use a flex pipe near the engine .Muffler shops carry flex pipes or you can pay much more at a marine supplier. Since the flex pipe is close to the engine and gets very hot it don`t have to be stainless steel. From there I used S.S. pipe that is routed from my center mounted engine up and out the rear cabin wall into the combing where it goes into a resonator then a few inches and into a muffler then out the back of the combing with an elbow down to 4 inches above the water.. I wrapped the entire system with an exhaust wrap you can get at a marine supplier .....It`s to keep the inside of the boat from getting to hot. At first I tried a dry stack above the boat and had a lot of soot landing on the deck Not Good... With one muffler and no resonator it was too loud at cruising speed.. I tried Brent`s method of exhausting below the water but it is quieter above the water ,And if you go to all the hassle of dry exhaust why have water in the end of the pipe? As you can tell it took awhile to get this system working but my sea trial 2 weeks ago went good. After 2 hours of motoring at 6 knts. It was still quiet and cool inside Happy to answer more questions if you have any. Darryl 1165 From: darryl_marlene Date: Sun Nov 10, 2002 6:06am Subject: Re: Cockpits Hi ted me again My own boat in photos Darryl`s 36 and Austin H both have no cockpit well. Our bed is in the stern ,I raised the seats and made more room in the bed area. Darryl 1166 From: jonhackett44 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:44am Subject: Plans page "6" ??? I've recieved a set of plans for the 36 footer and have noticed that there are pages labeled 1 through 7...however...there is no page 6 included and there is very little detail for the cockpit provided. Does anyone know if there is a page 6 in the plan set? Thanks, Jon 1167 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:13am Subject: Re: Plans page "6" ??? Jon, I have a a drawing 6. It is an undimensioned plan and elevation of the hull interior. There is no information of the cockpit on it. The only detailed cockpit info that I can see is on drawing 2. Looking at the photographs folks tend to build to their own design quite a bit. It helps to have the book as well. Regards, Ted 1168 From: riptide0037 Date: Mon Nov 11, 2002 4:53pm Subject: Re: Cockpits Ted - I recently bought a 36 twin keel with aft cabin and no cockpit well.I have only been on one overnight sail with it but had no misgivings.I plan to weld deck boxes with a small seat on both sides. It makes for a decent size aft cabin. Robert 1169 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Tue Nov 12, 2002 2:16am Subject: Pictures of Dale Deforests Swain 36 Well, I went sailing this past Saturday with Dale Deforest on his Swain 36. My first time seeing a Swain boat up close, and my first time on a metal sail boat. I have posted pictures at Yahoo groups under Dale Deforest 36' Swain. The boat is rigged as a staysail cutter, with rollerfurling headsails. Engine is a three cylinder Isuzu diesel with keel cooling and wet exhaust driving a 2 bladed prop. My first impression while sailing was how well the the boat tracked. Dale thought nothing of letting go of the tiller and walking forward to adjust the sails. The boat stayed right on course. Dale built the boat with Brents trim tab system but he currently uses an Aries vane gear for steering. He also has an autohelm tiller pilot which he has not been able to get working properly. I am a mechanical designer so I studied his setup. I think I have identified where he was having trouble and I made a few suggestions that I hope will get it working for him. The trim tab setup looks to me like it will work very well with a small electric autopilot. Dale pitched the forward windows on the pilot house aft rather than forward as Brent does. I think I like the way that looks, it somehow lowers the pilot house to my eye. Dale says the hull and deck pulled together in less than nine days. It took him 8 YEARS to launch it! 3 years were lost due to a house fire though. When you look closely at a boat like this there is a tremendous amount of detail work after the hull is pulled together. I am truly amazed at people that have the stamina to build a boat with a skeleton framework, plate it all up, and THEN do all that detail work! I posted quite a few pictures, I hope no one minds. My mind remembers a lot more pictures than I actually took, so some things I don't have pictures of! I have been trying to model a Swain hull in Rhino 3D, but so far I have been disapointed with the results. I bought Brent's 31' plans and scanned in the lines. I then brought the scanned images into Rhino and traced them as accurately as I could. This gave me a 3D framework to start from. I can get a developable surface but I have a crease from the foward corner of the chine to the point of the bow, and another from the rear end of the chine to the top corner of the transom. I know why the crease is there, I just can't figure out how to eliminate it. My hope is to create an accurate model of a Swain hull so that the parts can be CNC plasma cut from my drawings. More importantly though I want to use the model to design the complete interior before cutting any metal. After looking at Dale's boat I believe that the interior can be greatly simplified if you can figure out the entire design accurately before building anything. That way you get to say "If I just move this bulkhead forward 1" this other part will fit properly" without having to rip it up and start over. I model machines all day long in Rhino so I know I can pull this off if I can get the hull shape right. Gary H. Lucas 1170 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:40am Subject: Re: Pictures of Dale Deforests Swain 36 Thanks for posting photos, Gary, a welcome addition to the photo section. I invite anyone who has photos of origami boats to go ahead and pop them in the photo section, and if they need help, they can email photos to me to post. The straight tracking aspect of your friend's boat is really interesting. I wonder -- is this a function of the nature of the cutter rig, or is it the hull, or both working together? Anyone out there who runs the sloop have some input here? Regarding the 3-D work, group member Doug Barnard did the 3-D modelling shown in the album "3-D", and I think he used Rhino, so it might be worth chatting to him about it. I'll bet he knows how to get that crease out. His hull model looked pretty accurate, as far as I could tell. I am interested in a 3-D modelling system called "Touch 3-D" which someone has already used to design an origami boat of aluminum in Sweden. Does anyone have exprience with this program? Alex 1171 From: Richard Murray Date: Wed Nov 13, 2002 4:27pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust? Hi, I am am new to the group but I am in the process of trying to restore a Zeelandia 30' sloop that was built in Holland in 1955. The hull appears to be in good condition (no apparant scalling etc) but many layers of bottom side paint should be removed. In researching my approach I contacted CCI, the Company that distributes Neutrarust. I have used Neutrarust to treat cast Iron keels with good success. This seems to be on topic for this group so I would like to pass on what I have learned. After sandblasting the hull, I thought that it might be worth while to let it continue to rust for a while (1 to 3 months) and apply Neutrarust because West Systems say that bare steel should not be left in the open for more than 2 hours before being covered with epoxy. West System has since said that they have not had the best experience applying epoxy to rust coatings such as thse provided by Petit or Neutrarust. The epoxy does not seem to bond as well to these rust conversion products. Here is the reply that I received from Neutrarust (I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has experience restoring a steel hull): From: "Bruce Young" To: "Richard Murray" Subject: Re: 30' Steel Hull Sail Boat Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:26:38 -0500 Rich, You need to use our CCI 921 ( http://www.neutrarustinc.com/neutrarust661.htm ) for rusted areas. Any application above the water line on the outside of the hull would need to be over coated with a marine paint designed for the application. The 921 would be your primer coat as well as your rust converter. For application above the water line and inside the sailboat use 921 and our Flex Cote (http://www.neutrarustinc.com/neutrarusttl.htm ) for your top, or over, coat. Application notes are on the website links above. As you have more questionsplease email or call. Thanks for your inquiry. Bruce A. Young 828-684-5395 EFax: 810-958-7141 byoung@n... Regards, Rich Murray North Weymouth MA 1172 From: Phil S. Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:10pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust? I am hoping to use Corroseal as an alternative to sandblasting. I can not locate pre primed steel in my area. As far as coating it with any West product? That would be doubtful, I am severly allergic to Poly's and Epoxy's. So the old stand by of enamels will have to do. I will be ordering a small amount and painting some of my farm equipment with it as a test. Here is the list of recommended top coats form the coroseal literature; Top Coat Recommendations Acrylic Oil based coatings Alkyd based enamels Polyurethane Bituminous coatings Thermoplastic epoxy Chlorinated rubber Urethane-asphalt Epoxy/amines Urethane/coal tar Epoxy/coal tar Urethane-water based Epoxy/esters Vinyl Epoxy/polymides Vinyl/tar Latex Epoxy's and Polyurethanes are absolutely dangerous products and need to be applied with all of the proper safety gear. My back ground with it was in the service and the Chemical Agent Resistant Coating (CARC). Due to a respirator failure, I am down to one functional lung and can no longer work around any of those chemicals, so everyone please be careful using this stuff. From the chemical breakdown it looks like spray foam, Poly Isocyanate(sp) should be able to be applied directly to the coating on the interior. I will do some testing, I have used ALLOT of the spray foam in my house construction and it sticks to everything. Thanks Phil 1173 From: Ditmore, Stephen Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 4:51pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust? for coatings related links see http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?s=07ac52fe576166c85c107e0c65513f 0d&threadid=287 1174 From: Ditmore, Stephen Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 5:56pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust? Links to coatings for steel: www.appliedsemi.com www.ceram-kote.com/marine.htm www.por15.com www.powerspray.com www.deltacoat.com www.r-c-p.com/rust/english/english.htm www.intercoat.com/rustgrip.html www.laque.com www.nacecorrosionnetwork.com...ums/marine.html http://www2.uca.es/grup-invest/corr...enu/default.htm www.cansealant.com www.marinecorrosionclub.org.uk/index.htm www.neutrarustinc.com www.corrosion.com www.international-pc.com www.akzonobel.com/coatings/i...8&name=Coatings www.epoxyproducts.com www.corroseal.com 1175 From: Richard Murray Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:05pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust? Thanks very much. This should keep me busy for quite some time. To this list we can add www.westsystem.com R 1176 From: Richard Murray Date: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:07pm Subject: Re: Corroseal? Neutrarust? Thanks very much for the info. I had no idea that it is so dangerous. R 1177 From: brentswain38 Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:25pm Subject: Re: photo of external water muffler Ted I used stainless sch 40 pipe and a piece of the sidewall of a tire for the flap. For the dry exhaust I used stainless sch 40 pipe wrapped in fibreglass house insulation, the wrapped in foil, then wrapped in 3 inch wide exhaust lagging smeared with silicone caulking which is good for at least 300 degrees. Ive been sailing through the tropics for the last 40 days and it hasn't even goten warm back there. As there are a lot of twists and turn in the exhaust I followed Nigel warrens advice in his book Marine Conversions,and skipped the flex pipe . The engine is very solidly mounted and the exhaust is easy to move around by hand. It's been that way for a year ot wo , so far so good. Brent Swain 1178 From: brentswain38 Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Out Cruising. I'm in Niue , leaving for Vavau Tonga tomorrow, where internet is very expensive , $120 per minute , so I won't be able to access the internet much until I get to Nuku Alofa after hurricane season in April. There it's $5 per minute so I'll be able to catch up before heading back to Canada . I may be able to access it in Hawaii if I stop there , so please be patient if I'm slow to respond. You can still order books and plans from my Royston BC address. Brent Swain 1179 From: brentswain38 Date: Fri Nov 15, 2002 11:39pm Subject: Re: Plans page "6" ??? Ted For the cockpit I take a 4by8 ft sheet of 1/8th inch plate and have a brake press bend it into a trough 11 inches deep and 26 inches wide . I used to make it 24 inches wide, but you couldn't quite fit a couple of propane bottles side by side in the back of it as they are just over 12 inches wide.I run a longitudinal stringer down the centre of it to stiffen it a bit.The cockpit seats are each made out of a 4by8 ft sheet of 1/8th inch plate and run right out to the hull. Lately I've been puting the cockpit seats in before the well. It is a lot easier that way, and you can leave the inside edges of these a bit long, then cut them after the seats are in. Brent Swain 1180 From: Phillip Allen Date: Sat Nov 16, 2002 1:39pm Subject: external water muffler...Heating silicone caulk Just a caution concerning the silicone caulk. Obviously it's working in Brent's application, however, be very careful to keep it from getting relly hot. I don't know if the gas comming off the hot caulk is dangerous but you won't like the smell if it does get hot. Phillip Allen in North West Arkansas 1181 From: jonhackett44 Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 4:45am Subject: MIG wire and head location..... A few questions for the group… I've been digging around through the posts and can't seem to locate any info on MIG wire selection. Is there a preference for wire type, due to the nature of the environment? Has anyone found a source for pre-primed A-36 larger than 8X30', in or around the greater Seattle area? What brands of "zinc rich primer" have y'all found to be acceptable? And finally…I've decided on a wide open floor plan with waist high "bulkheads" and curtains. This leaves a privacy problem with the head though. I'm considering putting the head/shower aft of the steering station/chart table location, just inside and starboard of the companionway. This will double as a wet locker and provide starboard access to the engine. I don't have a grasp of the available headroom in this area and would appreciate any opinions. Also, if I were to extend the pilot house forward a foot or so, would this add enough room for the head?.....Thoughts? 1182 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 5:11am Subject: High heat silicone I believe there are high heat silicones available, and it would be important to ensure that you get the right kind. The type used by Brent might be what is called RTV gasket silicone, available at auto parts stores or Canadian Tire. I found some on the exhaust pipe of our wood pellet stove when I pulled off the flue and noted that it looks as new, with no evidence of burn marks or browning. There is also a silica-based material (called "waterglass"?), used for binding together the lagging on exhaust pipes. Maybe this is what he is refering to? I think it dries solid, however, so perhaps the flexible silcone caulking is what he meant. Alex 1183 From: prairiemaidca Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 5:17pm Subject: Prop size??? Hi All. Once again I turn to the group for knowledge. I'm installing my stern tube and laying out the opening for the prop. I can't seem to find any info on what the average prop size is for the 36footer fin keel. I'm planning on using one of the 30 to 40 hp. isuzu diesels. In order to allow the 12% tip clearance I'll need to have an Idea of what prop diameter is normal for this type of setup. Martin Prairie Maid.. 1184 From: Larry Doyle Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 6:07pm Subject: Twin Keels Found an interesting article on twin keels. http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/twinkeels/index.html 1185 From: silascrosby Date: Sun Nov 17, 2002 6:20pm Subject: Re: Prop size??? I have a 50 h.p. Isuzu in a 36'twin keel and have a 17x14 3 blade. I would go another inch diameter except for the limitation of the aperture. 1186 From: richytill Date: Mon Nov 18, 2002 11:56pm Subject: Re: High heat silicone High teprature silicone is available through wood stove stores. It is used to glue the ceramic rope onto doors etc. Devoe cathecote 302 is an excellent stabilised inorganic zinc primer--apparently one of the few that can be used below the waterline. rt 1187 From: richytill Date: Tue Nov 19, 2002 0:00am Subject: Re: Prop size??? You will need to decide if you are using a reduction gear; max rpm; and hp, in order to determine prop size. Greater ratio: bigger prop. Brent at Klassen diesel in Vancouver can probably advise you. rt 1188 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Tue Nov 19, 2002 4:30am Subject: Re: Prop size??? If you can get Dave Gerr's "Propellor Handbook" from the library, I can't remember specifically, but I think it had charts that gave you prop size and pitch for a given horsepower and reduction gear. Alex 1189 From: mark_schlichting11 Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:21am Subject: Re: Cockpits Having owned a Colvin Saugeen Witch (smaller version of a Gazelle at 35') without a cockpit well, I much prefer the cockpit on our Brent 36'. It feels alot more secure and out of the weather when healed over in a sea. We haven't been offshore yet, but I can imagine it being even more important there. The extra room for an aft cabin looks good but Ocean Pearl (actually I believe the boat's name is Pearl Song, isn't it Alex?) doesn't have an inboard and on Daryl's boat the engine is further forward, also making room for the aft cabin. We also gain some of that space back by having an aluminium box for a propane locker at the aft end of the cockpit, under the bench seat. It wouldn't fit without the depth of the cockpit. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC 1190 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 9:34am Subject: Re: Cockpits/interesting link I've stood on the aft deck of a non-cockpit unfinished hull, and did find it very exposed. It would be interesting to try it on the water to see what it is like. I can't help but think that one would always feel like one is being tilted off into the drink, unless somethink were built up high enough on the aft deck to enclose the pilot. Would you then feel quite tossed about, being higher and further away from the centre of the roll axis of the boat? Some thoughts to ponder, anyhow. I think Mark is right about Pearl Song's name! This helped me, as I have been trying to find a link to where I got those photos (lost it), and did a search on the name. I didn't find the page of Pearl Song, but I did find a link to something about a 31 foot steel yacht called "Eclectus", which I am sure is a Brent Boat. http://homepages.tesco.net/~john.olson/sail.html This page came up because there is a photo of the aforementioned boat careened on a drying tide in the Baja next to Pearl Song. The owner, John Olson, built Eclectus in BC in 1985, and eventually sailed it to Cornwall, UK, where he lives now. He lived on the boat until 1996. 11 years on a 31 foot boat. John appears to be designing other boats to the same kind of system. Anyone out there with more info about this designer? Alex 1191 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:14pm Subject: Thoughts on Origami construction Since going sailing on Dale Deforests boat I have been thinking some more about Origami construction. I am still trying to understand how the metal bends into the hull shape. I could use some help here from somone with access to a Brent boat that is on the hard. Specifically I want to know what you see if you place a straight edge on the hull with one end at the corner of the chine, and then sweep the other end of the straight edge along the forward hull to the bow, then down along the center of the hull towards the keel. If this surface is a true conic section you should see that the straight edge lies flat on the hull the whole time. I'd like to do the same at the stern, and if this is also a true conic section, then the straight edge will again lie flat the whole time as it is swept across the surface. My suspicion is that Brent's boats in fact have some compound curvature and that the straight edge won't in fact lie flat in some areas. I think the compound curvature is created when the bow is forced together with come-alongs and when the stern is forced against the transom. It probably isn't a lot, but it would explain why I am having a hard time generating a 3D model that will unroll to a flat sheet. The program I am using (Rhino) will model the compound curvature accurately, if I had accurate measurements. You could not however easily develop an accurate cutting pattern from the surface with somehow compensating for the distortion caused by the compound curvature. I have succeed in getting the crease out of the bow area of the hull that I had reported earlier. Once I had a better understanding of the shape I was able to adjust the input curves slightly and get a smooth fair surface. So far though I have not worked out the creases at the stern. If I can work this out with NO need for compound curvature then my 3d model will accurately represent a real boat. I believe it also means the boat would require less force to pull together, because no compound curve will be required to get the edges together. This probaably isn't real important in the real world though. An interesting revelation about Brent's method. Wih all the other methods of plating a hull, you work really hard to get a fair hull, trying to force flat plates to take on a compound curvature, using lots of seams, and trying not to warp the hull while welding it up. The end result can be very good, or very bad, depnding on whether you did everything right. With Brent's method, the boat starts out as unfair as it can get. The metal in resisting bending causes the surface to become very fair, and the welding on the inside for the angle stiffiners and deck edges, pulling in the edges at bow and stern etc. increases the compound curvature, making the hull FAIRER yet! My interest in 3D modeling has increased after seeing Dale's boat. It became clear to me that the interior of a boat is very difficult to do. I think this is because it is very difficult to forsee problem areas until you have already built major parts. Then you look at it and say, "Darn! If this part was 1/2" longer this other part would fit, bit it is way to much work to change it now" I believe Dale lined his boat hull with plywood, then worked out the details for all the interior stuff. I'd like to design all the interioer stuff as modules that could be built outside, and then installed, and KNOW they would fit. Beth Leonard and her partner Evans built all the interior of their Van De Stadt Samoa 47 'Hawke' did it that way. Probably becase they were able to get accurate dimensional drawings for the whole boat. An accurate 3D model would probably save tons of time and money in outfitting the interior of a boat. It also would allow some of that work to get done in parallel with hull and deck building. Anyway, just my current thinking on the subject. Gary H. Lucas 1192 From: M. Fletcher Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 5:18pm Subject: Re: Re: Cockpits > Having owned a Colvin Saugeen Witch (smaller version of a Gazelle at > 35') without a cockpit well, I much prefer the cockpit on our Brent > 36'. It feels alot more secure and out of the weather when healed > over in a sea. Just my .02..... Colvin designed his Witch/Gazelle for a modified junk rig and proponents say the rig causes far less heel than a Bermuden-type. Possibly the "security" of a cockpit is not such an issue on junk rigged vessels. Just for curiousities sake, Mark, how was your Witch rigged? Mary Victoria 1193 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 10:09pm Subject: Re: Thoughts on Origami construction I commend Gary for working on the science of this process! When I can get to a hull (there is one in town I could check), I'll take a stick along and see how it sweeps. I suspect that there must be some compound curves in the bow, definitely. In terms of pulling the hull together, I think the "spring" in the steel may be one of the elements which keeps the hull fair and stiff (though of course once the cabin and decks are on it boxes everything in very tightly). The hull halves are pulled together starting from the bow area first, and this must be because it would be too awkward to start from the transom. Tack welding along the centreline as you go, the long halves can be used as giant levers to deal with the resistance of the steel in the bow to being "tortured". But it all does go together without much strain for the builder, so I wouldn't try to design the stress out of the hull skins. The "stress skin" phenomenon is used in many engineering applications to creat incredible strength and rigidity. The trick is getting the right amount of stress built in without making it impossible or dangerous to pull together. John Olson's website has some wire frame drawings of different hulls he has conceptualized, and these show what appears to be conic projection. As such, they are "idealized", and I wonder if this is really the way it would or should go together. An interesting question to ponder. Alex 1194 From: John Olson Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:30pm Subject: Who's this guy anyway? Alex What would you like to know? Cheers John john.olson@b... 1195 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:59pm Subject: Vessel Eclectus John, I was wondering if your 31 footer mentioned in your web page was a Brent Swain hull, and if you have done further designs using a similar system. If you have any anecdotes about how the boat performed at sea, I'm sure the group would be quite interested. Regards, Alex 1196 From: Alex Christie Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 0:02am Subject: Flush cockpits Having owned a junk-rigger (a wee craft -- 18 ft Super Pelican), I can say that they definitely heel less than bermudan rigged craft, but I found that in situations where side to side roll was induced, the hull would heel over regardless of rig (especially if travelling under power sideways to an oncoming swell, and there was no wind to steady the boat). During those moments where the boat was pumping side to side, I was happy to be ensconced in the recessed cockpit, and would have felt in danger of sliding off if I was perched on top of a deck with no cockpit. On the other hand, I would have loved to have had a larger space underneath the cockpit for stores or sleeping, and would have been fine with a smaller footwell as a comprimise between a cockpit or not having one, thereby having the best of both worlds. The album "Austin Hull" features a 36 with a flush deck if you want to see what it looks like. When looking inside this boat, it seemed to me that it made for a somewhat cramped aft cabin, in part due to the sweep of the hull upward toward the stern. But for laying down in it would be fine, if that was all you were after. Submariners put up with much lower headspace than that above their heads! I'm not sure how that cabin relates to the positioning of the engine, as it was not installed yet. Alex 1197 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 1:26am Subject: fitting out the interior - 3-D modelling or real templates? Regarding the fitting out of interiors: The fitting out of a boat like the Van de Stadt 47 could be done off the hull in modules, but I'd be quite leery of doing this based solely on 3-D modelling based on the plans, unless the boat were built exactly to plans. Any variation, which a one-off boat is bound to have, would result in things like big gaps where the hull meets a bulkhead, or furniture skewed in an unpleasant way. Every boat tends to have it's own shape, even production models in any given material. It would work if you did the 3-D modelling using measurements from the actual boat, and it could be handy for modelling what you'd like to do inside the boat -- something Doug Barnard did for the 40 footer (he did a fly-thru of this which I can't open with my outdated computer, but it would be fascinating to see). However, there are manual methods not dependent on computers which will be completely accurate and and would still allow you to build parts off the hull if you chose. Personally, I'll build furniture in place, making it demountable for future modifications if need be, so the only thing I'll be doing off the boat is laminating counter tops. My thoughts about fitting out an interior are this: I used to think fitting out a boat would be very difficult with all those crazy angles and curved sides of hull and whatnot, but my time at boatbuilding school gave me some basic tools that allows me to fit bulkheads to any shape with a high degree of accuracy, and with a minimum of thought (I like low-brain-power stuff). It can be explained with a simple diagram, which I have attached here (I have also put the image in the loose photos at the end of the photo album for those who don't want to open attachments off-web). The method is called "tick stick", and is quite simple, despite my long-winded explanation. Some of you may just look at the figure I have attached here and not bother reading what I write -- I don't mind! There area, of course, many other ways of templating, as well as varations within the use the tick stick, two which I have shown in the diagram. Another method I know of uses a compass to scribe lines on the templating panel, others using bits of doorskin stapled together (this can be floppy, but works if you are careful). If you have some techniques, please do share. Looking at the attached diagram, you can see that I have chosen to create a bulk-head for one side of the boat. This could be a bulkhead between the head and the main cabin. A piece of plywood that fits in the space loosely is held in place with sticks screwed to the ply which go to the floor, to the side, and to the ceiling. It doesn't have to be as big as the bulkhead, it just needs enough room to have sticks pinned to it all around. The support sticks need to be firmly fixed to the wood furring strips so the plywood doesn't move while you are tick-sticking. Then, take small sticks with pointed ends (just cut off at an angle) that are long enough to reach the hull, floor and cabin sides with the tail end having enough length to be screwed to the plywood. Or, if going with the non-screwed type of tick stick, make one tick-stick with a uniform shape and nice point which can reach all parts of the hull when held in different positions on the plywood. This is the stick shown at the bottom left hand side of each image, coloured Blue. I have shown what it looks like after you scribe a sharp line all the way around the stick, then remove the stick. Using the screwed-on tick-stick method, just carry one applying tick sticks that point at all places where there is a change in angle or a curve. The more the merrier, but not that many are needed on a curve it has a constant radius. Next, you remove your pattern (the second figure) and place it onto the piece of plywood you intend to make into the bulkhead. Position the pattern so that all tick-stick points point to wood, and waste is minimized (you can use the off-cut of plywood somewhere else). Fix the pattern down onto the plywood with nails or screws so that it can't move. Then put a nail in the ply where each arrow points. You can remove the pattern now. For straight sections, use a long stiff straight edge, and pencil in the lines. For carved areas, spring a flexible batten (wood, plastic or any consistent flexible material that is stiff enough to take a nice fair curve) over top of the nails (this would be along the roof top portion of your pattern), and scribe your sharp pencil line there. I didn't show the left hand side of the pattern, but you can see that you'd want to mark where your bulkhead edge is on the inside of the boat too. With the penciled tick-stick, you re-position your stick in each space you have scribed in all the positions, and again put a nail where ever the points are. I'd be really careful to align the stick in as exact a spot as you can to the original when you scribed it. Making a good sharp scribe line is key here. Use this technique if you have to escape the hull to make the cut on the bulkhead material, otherwise I'd stick to using the fixed method. Then all you need to do is carefully cut to the line, and you'll have a bulkhead which should fit very closely to where you intended it to go. In practice, it doesn't hurt to have a bit of a gap on the bulkhead so you can move it into place easily, and there may be a trim piece covering the gap up in any case, or it disappears when it meets up with the back of the end of the settee furniture. The more hidden it is, the more slack you can be with the fitting! Long winded explanation complete, I'm sorry I'm not a technical writer, but I try my best! Regards, Alex 1198 From: richytill Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:56am Subject: Re: Thoughts on Origami construction Gary, i put a straight edge accross the hull of the 36' finkeel I'm building: there are compound curves. Some of this can be attributed to shrinkage where the outside of the plate is burned to shape; welding will contract this zone some more and the longditudanal stiffners lend to the effect. In other words Brent has used the effects of the welding and fabricating process to work for the builder and the boat. Most designers make a shippy shape and leave you to battle with the metal. For the novice this often proves to be a laborious saga of trial and error. Perhaps the term "advanced amatuer construction" should be read as "time consuming and problematic." Note: my son Luke was helping put in bulkheads the other day and during the process came up with a niffty concept: folding patterns. Instead of assembling splines, numbering them and dissassembling and re assembling them--we now make a folding pattern that pops out the hatch and onto the plywood. We un-fold the pattern replace a couple of wing nuts and mark out the next bulkhead. The splines can be re- used. The holes in the bulkhead tabs become reference points in this approach. We cut all the bulkheads under the boat (out of the rain) to a size that fits through the companionway hatch. Turns out to be fun. rt 1199 From: Gary H. Lucas Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:44am Subject: Re: fitting out the interior - 3-D modelling or real templates? Alex, I think the problem is as bad as you say, and also very much solvable. A big part of the solution I believe is inherent in the Origami concept. You have just two main plates and two perimeters. If you pull them together, to accurate predetermined locations against accurately cut deck plates the real variation from hull to hull should actually be very little. This is due to the fact that you simply can't stretch a 3/16" thick plate even a fraction of one percent with come-along. The accuracy I am talking about is say +-1/8" along cutting lines. This should produce a hull that is accurate enough that you can make all internal furniture bulkheads say 1/2" oversize and then just trim to final shape after construction and during final fitting, using the technique you describe. My theory should be easy to check. I figure I can produce a CNC data file for a hull and deck laser cut from a single small sheet of steel which would be cheap. I'd also cut some internal ribbing and bulkheads. If the hull and deck are welded together and the bulkheads and ribs then fit as I expect then it would be reasonable to expect I could duplicate that in a full size boat. No one builds kitchen cabinets in the kitchen anymore, even for remodels. All the cabinets are in modules and they are accurately leveled, shimmed and then small trim strips achieve the close fit to untrue surfaces on all sides. Even amateur boat building should be no different. By the way, my dad was an electrical contractor and I grew up in the business. Our trucks were custom Shops-on-wheels. Dad carefully measured the truck bodies, produced accurate drawings and figured out where every single item of inventory and tools went, and then we built modular cabinetry which we installed in the truck. Curved truck sides and roofs, wheel wells, doors and windows make a van body nearly as bad as a boat hull. Some of our larger trucks had small kitchens for lunchtime, and as many as 48 drawers. No two drawers were exactly alike. Every drawer was custom fitted to the material that went in each drawer. I want to consider every item that gets stored in the boat, as part of the process of laying out the interior. Determine what the storage requirements are for each item, then take that into account when designing the cabinetry. Instead of finishing the interior and standing in there and saying "now where can I put this?" I design custom machines for a living. The two I am currently building have over 800 pieces each, about 300 custom made parts and 500 purchased parts of all kinds. I have complete bills of materials, subassembly lists, and 3D drawings of the entire machine before I make even the first machined part. I don't see that boat building needs to be too different a process. Imagine if you got a set of boat plans, 3D views of the hull and all the interior assemblies and tree structured bill of materials listing EVERY part needed to build this version. Wouldn't that make gathering all the materials at the lowest cost a whole lot easier? Gary H. Lucas 1200 From: Phillip Allen Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 2:34pm Subject: Re: Re: Cockpits I've never owned a sail boat (yet) so am only guessing here. I have, however, been in construction for many years (bricklayer), worked from many types of scaffolding from homade to today's state-of-the-art. That said, and concerning flush cockpits...my own experience was cruising for three months on a Morgan OI in tropical water. We experienced one knock down with bare sticks in a micro-burst (75 mph wind), were pooped once (fourteen foot seas) and in the latter case, nearly lost a rather stupid and slow witted man overboard. The two of us who grabbed him as he was washing overboard under the safety lines were much safer ourselves because of being in a cockpit with a lot of personal ballast below the edge of the cockpit. The idea of being down in a cockpit seems safer than standing on deck and the lounging feature of our cockpit was attractive and useful. So, being a "leaner"...walls, shovels, fence rails, etc, I wonder if a cockpit of solid rails with a bench for anyone at the helm or lounging there would be a good idea. It would need to be as strong as scaffolding so people could clip-on (never heard of safety harness till after my little cruise...owner's fault I suppose, though we did just turn ourselves over to his...uh...protection/not part of this topic anyway). This sort of construction would allow me to stand and lean which I like to do and certinly allow more space below. Just my thoughts...Phillip 1201 From: M. Fletcher Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 5:52pm Subject: Re: Re: Cockpits Are you meaning something like a "playpen" welded to a flush deck? No pit, just a secure enclosure for anyone unfortunate enough to pull a watch on a bad night? Mary 1202 From: Phillip Allen Date: Thu Nov 21, 2002 7:17pm Subject: Re: Re: Cockpits Yes, like a crib, maybe as much as four feet to the top. Four corners and rails on three sides. Benches made of very heavy steel mesh meant to hold cushions. Removable back rest cushions. If in rough weather, one would likely have a pfd on and unless it’s an inflatable, would furnish any back cushioning needed...therefore "removable" back cushions to minimize windage or just loose stuff out in the wind. Depending on the size of boat and therefore width of cockpit area, one could even create a set of chocks to lean a hard dinghy against and secure the helmsman against spray, etc. It would have to be configured to accommodate the type of steering the boat has…tiller or wheel. Phillip 1203 From: edward_stoneuk Date: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:21pm Subject: Re: Cockpits Thanks to everyone for the ideas and experiences of different kinds of cockpits. One thing most cockpits have in common is that they are uncomfortable. An idea that is not that uncommon in new boats is to have a gap in the transom at the back of the cockpit so that one can walk through to a swimming platform or whatever. Another idea is to have the cockpit big enough for an inflatable dinghy to sit in. The tubes of the inflatable could then be used as comfortable cockpit seats, apart from the rowlocks that is. This leads on to another problem in small boats, where to store the dinghy without blocking the lookout from the helm or pilot house. Regards, Ted 1204 From: John Olson Date: Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:57pm Subject: Re: Vessel Eclectus Alex and all Yes, Eclectus is a twin-keeled Swain 31 (Eclectus: Latin for 'the best of many choices' Also the name of a parrot from SE Asia. We had 2 parrots on board the boat for 10 years). She was built at Shelter Island Marina in Richmond (south of Vancouver). Brent came by and we started in March '83 Evan Shaler showed up as well to see how it was done. She was launched in Nov '85. Did a trip to California in '86, but had some problems (not associated with the boat) and put it on a truck and brought it back to Canada. Spent '87 sailing up to the top of the Georgia Strait before wintering in Victoria (I was working on the Pacific Swift). Left again in '88 for California. This time managed to get to Mexico, Costa Rica, Panama, thru the canal, Caymans, Florida, South Carolina (dodging Hurricane Bob), Massachusetts , Nova Scotia, Bermuda (November passage!, either that or be stuck in the ice in Halifax Harbour), then to St Martin (working for The Moorings, repairing plastic charter boats), BVI's, Bermuda (again) then a 25 day passage (2 days of 152 miles, 124 mile/day average, 8 days over 140 miles, only had to steer the last 2 hours into Bantry Bay!) to the SW of Ireland. From there to Falmouth in Cornwall, in Sept '91. Been here ever since. I still have the boat, but she needs a little work before she's fit to do more ocean work. The boat had no engine until '93, it now has a Saab single cylinder diesel (8hp low revving, swinging a HUGE variable pitch prop. 6kts in the flat calm and 4.5 knots in just about anything). We had an 10hp Honda outboard on the back, but it was useless for anything but flat calm conditions, and it was never certain if it was going to start at all. To it's credit, it did live a very rough life, and still ran most of the time. No electronic navigation for the first 12000 miles (the boat has about 25000 miles on it), just sextant and compass. As you saw from that old web page, I have designed a few folded boats. The majority are dinghies. They were produced commercially here for a couple of years, about 5 years ago. I am working right now to redo the drawings for the 11'6" boat, and they'll be offered for sale early in the new year. A nice boat, it's mostly aimed at people who want to try building a folded boat before tackling a full size one. I built the prototype in plywood in '93 , but the commercially built ones were ali. The boats are all designed using a combination of CAD and models. I will let the list know (with your permission) when they are ready. If the response is any good, I'll redraw the 9' stemhead dinghy and the 8' pram as well. The only large boat I've designed is a 38' 12 ton version of a Falmouth Pilot Cutter (similar to the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters, but believed locally to be a far more seaworthy vessel). I'm not keen on the size of the boat, but it's what the owner wanted. It is locked in a shed near here while the owner is off earning money for it's completion. Hull, deck, keel, cockpit and tanks are done, most detail steelwork is completed, but the owner is insistent on a yachty interior, so I don't expect it will hit the water any time soon. A smaller version of the boat would be possible, and would look similar to Lin and Larry Pardey's Talisin (without the cartoonish exaggeration) I've got some pictures around of various folded boats; I will see if I can find them and scan them for the files section. Don't hold you're breath tho', I haven't seen them for a while. I check my email daily (and even reply to it occasionally!) and am willing to answer any questions anyone might have. Cheers John john.olson@b... 1205 From: mark_schlichting11 Date: Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:12am Subject: Re: Cockpits Mary, My Colvin, "Moonchild", was ketch rigged (marconi) and healed a fair bit when beating, but that may have been due to the sails being bagged. Mark S. Costa Vida Shearwater, BC 1206 From: ggalpaugh Date: Tue Nov 26, 2002 4:38pm Subject: Looking for a boat Hi group, My wife and I met Brent and the Ward's (Mishar) at Fanning and other south pacific islands and have been converted to the steel boat concept. We've recently sold our BCC and are now in the market for a steel cruising boat in the 40 foot size range. So if anyone knows of anything available (low budget, of course) we'd appreciate the tip. We're presently living in Victoria. Thanks. Gary and Kay 1207 Spam 1208 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:49pm Subject: Re: Looking for a boat Are you looking for a completely finished 40 footer, or a bare hull? Alex 1209 From: Alex Christie Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 6:38pm Subject: update: Origami steel yacht construction course Dear group, I just wanted to let everyone know that the boatbuilding course is going to go ahead not this spring/summer, but rather the next one. In order to bring the best experience to all who enroll, it became apparent that it is going to take more time to develop the course content and infrastructure. In other words, "we sell no wine before its time". The great news is that Brent is keen on the idea and will be onboard as instructor. I'll keep everyone on the list posted as to developments -- and if you wish to be added to the list, please let me know so I can keep you updated. We have 12 people signed up so far -- enough for two courses -- which means a third course may be added. I will have a website up in the new year, and there will also be information there regarding development of the boatbuilding course and boatschool contruction site, as soon as there's news to print. Alex 1210 From: ggalpaugh Date: Wed Dec 4, 2002 9:45pm Subject: Re: Looking for a boat Preferably one ready to sail. We're heading back to NZ soon. Gary 1211 From: janeikeland janeikeland@y... Date: Sun Dec 8, 2002 3:26pm Subject: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Hello there. Im doing some research of building a steel boat (hull). Ive seen a company (Boatbuilding ws) in Canada that build steel hulls without frames. Designed by Brent Swain (?) I also notice a company in US who delivers steel hull as kits with frames. Somebody here with experiences of Swain boats (motorsailer approx 36ft) in REALLY bad weather ? What year did the author write his book about metalboats and are informations updated ? (suppose technic and materials change over as year past). I cant find the book at Amazon. Do I need the book doing interiour ? Does it fit this purpose ? How should I design parts of hull when I have no drawings to look at ? I tried to search for Swain to pick up his background as a designer but havent found any. thank You regards Jan Eikeland 1212 From: Alex & Kim Christie Date: Sun Dec 8, 2002 8:08pm Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Hi Jan, The Confidence Custom Boatbuilding does indeed feature Brent Swain hulls, some with modifications beyond Brent's original design. I am not aware of which hull kit company in the US you are referring to. Do you mean they deliver steel hull kits for regular steel boats, or do you mean they are making kits for Swain type hulls? Do you have a website for this company? Brent adds information to his book from time to time. I am not sure when he first published it. My book says 1994. You won't find the book at Amazon, as it he publishes and distributes it himself. Regarding doing the interior, there are some excellent guidelines in the book which give you the basics. Most people typically elect to work out their own interiors based on their own needs and wishes, as you would a house. Additionally there are many books available on interiors available at local libraries and online (at Amazon, for instance). Here are just a few I found by searching on Amazon, for instance: From A Bare Hull : How To Build A Sailboat by Ferenc Mate The Finely Fitted Yacht by Ferenc Mate (recommended) Boat Joinery and Cabinet Making Simplified by Fred P. Bingham (Paperback) (Highly recommended) Build Your Own Boat: Completing a Bare Hull by Ian Nicolson (Paperback) Boatowner's Mechanical & Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems by Nigel Calder (Hardcover) Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding by George Buheler, George Buehler (Paperback) Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook: A Compendium for Coastal and Offshore Sailors by Nigel Calder (Hardcover Additionally, there is all the fun to be had in visiting owners of similar boats to your own and seeing how they solved the interior design puzzle. There are quite a few owners on this list who have been very accommodating this way. I've always found the experience both socially pleasurable and technically valuable. There is nothing like seeing an actual boat already put together, or partly put together (I've found that really helpful, because you can then see the underlying structure). As for Brent's background, you'll find more information at sea or down at the docks than online, with the exception of this group. Both himself and the people who have built his boats more typically spend their time offshore, rather than online, which I think explains the lack of net presence. I first learned about his boats simply by being aboard my liveaboard boat and seeing his boats on the water. Eventually my curiosity about certain unique aspects of these rugged craft brought me to engage their owners in conversation. The rest is history. I have some interesting thoughts about yacht designers and their relation to the internet. Perhaps just this once I'll abandon my usual reserve on the subject to make my opinions known (without mentioning names): Some designers have made a lot of money by heavily promoting themselves on the internet, and appear to have a very high profile, yet they have very few, if any, boats to show for it. In other words, "a lot of smoke but no fire". Hence, their online presence does not equal actual boats built and in use. Their websites are very flashy, and the vessel illustrations look like real dreamboats, but ultimately their work is almost entirely conceptual/theoretical, with no working examples to see and experience. One designer of framed steel boats in particular whom I contacted through his website showed no photos of completed boats on his site. When I politely asked via e-mail if he could send me some photos, he replied that he didn't have any. When I asked if refer me to any of his existing boats at dock, he stopped writing back completely. I wasn't trying to put him on the spot, I just wanted to see one of his boats, which is a completely reasonable request of any bonafide yacht designer. I later heard that he has only one boat to his plans, which is his personal boat, and the rest of his designs have never been built, though plans continue to be sold. You can draw your own conclusions about this one -- I've drawn mine. Alex 1213 From: edward_stoneuk tedstone@g... Date: Mon Dec 9, 2002 10:04am Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Jan, I am building one of Brent Swains 36' designs. In general the plans show the plate dimensions before it is assembled whereas other designers show the dimensions of the finished vessel and the builder has to work out the plate dimensions. I know of boat builders that have been disappointed in that parts of the steel boat kits that they have bought don't fit. Whether this is due to the parts being incorrectly dimensioned or due to welding distortion I do not know. Before I settled on this design I spent some time looking at other designs even going so far as to buy plans. I don't need them now and so have them for sale at a very reasonable price considering what I paid for them. The would enable anyone to have a look at other designer's offerings very cheaply. Bruce Roberts 40' multi-chine `Spray' (building plans) Bruce Roberts 36' multi-chine long keel sailboat (building plans) Tom Colvin's 42' Junk Rigged Ocean Cruiser `Gazelle' (study plans) Jay R Benford's 35' Double ended sailboat `Mercedes' (study plans) `Metal Boats Building, Maintenance & Repair' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson (signed copy) `Spray The Ultimate Cruising Boat' by Bruce Roberts-Goodson Designs and Services list with 1997 price list by the Benford Design Group. Yacht design catalogue and price list by George Buehler. Yours for only 155 USD, or 243 CAD, or 100 GBP plus postage Regards, Ted 1214 From: Paul Faulkner Date: Mon Dec 9, 2002 4:52pm Subject: Re: Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Ted, I'll take you up on your offer for the plans and books. Please email me details about how you would like to complete the transaction. Paul 1215 From: richytill tillrc@h... Date: Mon Dec 9, 2002 4:58pm Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Ted, the pattern development for the hull worked well here. How are you finding progress? I am presently putting on hatches and fitting bulkheads in a 36' fin keel. Finished welding in time to put on lots of paint before winter set in. There is no way I could afford to buy a boat like this without going deeply into debt. Building as material can be afforded seems the logical alternative. It is also hard to find exactly what you want--this design approach makes sense in that way Richard, Sechelt BC. rt 1216 From: fmichael graham Date: Tue Dec 10, 2002 0:46am Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q Jan: There are many companies that sell everything from basic plans & patterns to fully pre-cut hull & deck plates or CNC files to have your parts cut (Designs by George Buehler, Bruce Roberts, Denis Ganley, Trevor Bolt, etc.). What - more than anything else - differentiates these from the Brent Swain concept are cost of construction, degree of difficulty, cost of hull/deck material, and rudimentary hull design. Although I have not yet built a Brent Swain, my experience as a steel fabricator/welder and sailor/sailboat owner gives me some insight into what are most probably the pros & cons of choosing to build in the "Swain way". Too, my experience with the Canadian Navy & Coast Guard has made me very skeptical in what I would go to sea on. Cost of hull/deck material and construction: The Swain boats fair very well here. For most design kits you will "pay through the nose". The cost of the steel when building a "Swain" (origamiboat) would be lower than the alternatives due to less overall required material, less waste material and less welding. Specifically, less welding also means less grinding and less back-liniment. Believe me, you will not be too far into a project before the monotony of the labour makes you wonder why you ever started. Just by looking up the above-mentioned designers on the internet you will find that the pre-cut kits will, in most cases, cost you significantly more than building a "Swain". Degree of difficulty: I would think that, because the "Swain" method is more "grass-roots" that there would be more room for challenges in construction as a "kit boat" has an already designed keel(s), prop. shaft tube, etc.. Yet, with this web-site it seems that there are enough experienced members to help with solving any problem that should arise. I wonder if they will start charging consulting fees... Rudimentary hull design: I guess the two big questions here are; how does it look and how does it sail. I must confess that I have some concerns when it comes to the aestetics of the chine. I have looked at a few hulls and would definitely talk to one or two builders whom seem to have made the angles appear a little smoother and less abrupt. Still, it doesn't seem to detract from the seakeeping characteristics and as long as it is kept in the water and only hauled when no one was around I suppose it doesn't really matter. So, the most important question is: can this boat take me safely around the world? On a steel-hulled boat of 40' or less the "flex" of the hull would be minimal whether or not there was significant framing. One should consider that after adding longitudinal stiffeners and the odd transverse stringer, the addition of more framing in a hull of this size would offer a diminishing increase in hull stiffness while detrimentally increasing the hull weight. Remember, what we want is for our highest percentage of displacement to come from the lowest point of the boat(e.g. the keel) as the speed of the hull is reduced as the overall displacement increases over a certain value(displacement to length ratio). What sells me on the "Swain design" is the fact that several boats of this design have put a lot of "blue water" miles under their keels, including Brent Swain himself whom is, presently, puttering around in the great Pacific Ocean with no apparent interest in returning to his home port in the near future. I am planning to purchase a Swain in the new year to sail to the Philippines from Vancouver, Canada, if I can find a 36'-40' with twin keels. I hope I have been of some help. Good luck, Mike Graham 1217 Date: Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:02am Subject: {Cockpit well} I want to know how much slope to give the cockpit foot well so that it drains correctly. Can someone give me some expert advice on installing the cockpit well? I am really having fun putting together the 36 footer - I plan to put the bilge keels on. Bob Meade Leesburg FL 1218 Date: Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:29am Subject: {Re: To buy or not to buy thats the Q} Further, even if you hired a competent welder (not a welding shop)for a couple of days now and then to cut out the hull plates etc. it would surely be far less expensive in the long run than a kit boat. The folded boat, as it comes off of Brent's plans comes together effectively and efficiently--I know, I have just finished welding and painting one in my "spare time." The key here though is that there is comparitvely far less welding and hence far less distortion, time and welding costs. Building headstocks, setting up stations and laying out patterns is done away with as is flipping over the hull. The symetry, compared to using frames is, in all practicallity, perfect. The "Origami" book gives a great deal of practical information that plans, in general, do not. All the dockside admirals, prognosticators and naval astheticians who drop by the project, comment over and over on the "sleek" hydrodynamic form of the hull and ask repeatedly "you started when?" Some have admitted to the gallons and gallons of filler that typically get used to cover up all the warpage around seams and frames in conventional construction. Others are confused by the obvious presence of compound curves. They tend to leave with the comment--I can't believe it's metal and the usual "and you started when?" I made no attempt to get that " plastic boat look." A good weld, or stitch mark, is nothing to be ashamed of--nor is the metal the boat is made of. This is craftsmanship; it can speak for its' self. Steel has the advantage of being a very honest medium to work with; why not keep it that way? It tells you when it is rusting, when it is warping, when it is full thickness. A good weld is as strong as the metal around it. The charecteristics of this material are well understood and appropriately coated steel has stood the test of time. Perfect, no: practical, yes. This is not a gamble--it works. rt 1219 Date: Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:56am Subject: {30' Brent Swain for sale} Anyone interested in 30' Brent Swain boat for sale on Vancouver Island should take a look at {http://buysell.com/showad.asp?} id=20971709 This boat is moored in Nanaimo with an asking price of $20,000 Cdn. I thought it was in good shape when I was shown around this summer and I was told a previous owner (Brent?) had taken it to Hawaii. I hope everyone can download the ad, if not, tell me and I can e- mail the page to you. John Fuller in Campbell River. 1220 Date: Tue Dec 10, 2002 5:03pm Subject: {Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale} John, Thanks for the heads up on the boat. I tried to access the page, but it said, "This ad no longer exists", even though I have member access to buysell.com. If you have a copy, can you forward to me? Thanks, Alex 1221 Date: Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:50pm Subject: {Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale} The line was broken after the ? sign, try this: {http://buysell.com/showad.asp?id=20971709} 1222 Date: Wed Dec 11, 2002 0:51am Subject: {Re: Re: 30' Brent Swain for sale} I Forwaded the page to you even though your corrected link below works fine for me. If anyone else is having trouble just go to buysell.com and brouse the 23' to 32' sailboat section OR do a power search for Brent Swain, both should work. Good hunting! John. 1223 Spam 1224 Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:32am Subject: {origami dinghy} Are there plans for the dinghy or is all the information that is available in Brent's book? If plans are available, what is the cost? I thought this would be a great starter project. Matthew 1225 From: Alex & Kim Christie <{achristie@t...}> Date: Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:47am Subject: {Re: origami dinghy} The pattern for the dinghy is in Brent's book, but I can also post it to the group files for you to print out and use for free. I'll get them scanned and posted some time this week or next. There is no The pattern looks very similar to the pattern for the big boat, but the "tabs" are on the sides instead of the bottom of the hull. There is no scale on the dinghy pattern --- you scale to what size you need. There isn't much, if any, information in the book on building the dinghy, but if you search the group's archives with the keyword "dinghy" and you'll get the postings with advice from Brent containing some advice on dinghy-building. He did say that you can play around with the pattern in cardboard, and whatever you come up with on that that works will also work in aluminum. In other words, have some fun and innovate Alex ************* Brent's advice from the his post back in May is as follows: "The amount of rocker you have with any origami boat is directly relative to the amount of flare in the topsides . Pull the topsides together and reduce their flare and the rocker and sheer will flatten. The reason for the midships seam is that aluminium isn't available in the widths it would take to get adequate beam in a dinghy. I used a 5 by 8 foot sheet for mine and had to weld pieces on to get the width. This involved a lot more seam that would have been the case if I had just welded two 4 foot wide sheets together accross the bottom, altho it took less material. I'd weld the complete flat dinghy plate together before trying to pull it into a dinghy.Welding the sides together before pulling the bow and stern together would be easier.The transom can be made more or less whatever shape you want , given approximatly the right width and depth.Shallower sides would make it easier to pull together, but slightly less stable.I'd probably go for a wider transom to improve stability if I were building mine again." 1226 From: kupris1948 johnkupris@a... <{johnkupris@a...}> Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 3:02pm Subject: {what if your aground ?} I have listened to Brent and installed massive mooring bits. Does anybody have a method to winch a boat off of a grounding where no tide is going to float you off. I know that heeling the boat works alot of the time but if it does not is there anything else? 1227 From: John Jones <{capt-john@s...}> Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 5:46pm Subject: {Re: what if your aground ?} Okay, This may sound crazy but, being in the salvage business for the past 20 years well, close up your boat "watertight" then, take your main halyard and lead it out to deeper water, another boat or anchor...extensions may be needed and use a deck winch to haul yourself back out to deeper water. After all, what on your boat is stronger than the rig? Crude but it works. John 1228 Date: Thu Dec 19, 2002 1:08pm Subject: {Re: what if your aground ?} Hi Capt. John, Thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense but I'm thinking about Tom Colvins' cruise in "Antelope" when a mini tornado pushed him onto a sand bank and he had to wait for a salvage ship to come and get him off. I'm seeing 8 ton comealongs for sale for cheap with I/4" wire. My boat is 9 tons. Am I nuts or can a big anchor and comealong do any good. The obvious answer is maybe but I have no experience with such things... What do you think? 1229 From: John Jones <{capt-john@s...}> Date: Fri Dec 20, 2002 4:34am Subject: {Re: what if your aground ?} Just a little at a time, slowly but surely, NEVER say die! 1230 Date: Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:08pm Subject: {Re: what if your aground ?} > After all, what on your boat is stronger than the rig? In a spinnaker broach, the pull at the head of the mast might pull the boat over to 90 degrees. You wouldn't expect that to damage the rig. I suppose the force would be more if the hull had to be lifted a bit on one of the twin keels. Peter 1231 From: Graeme <{g.mitch@b...}> Date: Wed Dec 25, 2002 2:53am Subject: {Fw: Urgent.} Virus Warning - (details deleted).